HAULED ABOARD THE ARK (Advancing Prot./Cath. Discussion)

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/hauled-aboard.htm ^ | Peter Kreeft

[drstevej]

***I don't see much response from the Calvinists or other protestants in this forum. Perhaps, that is because they are not theology students or are satisfied with what they have been taught.***

In my case, I am reasonably inquisitive and have a working knowledge of the theological / historical issues. I am at home as a biblically focused Christian.

[NYer]

So you aren't at all concerned that there must be something incorrect with what the RC church is teaching if 90% believe that "...they expect to go to Heaven because they tried, or did their best, or had compassionate feelings to everyone, or were sincere. Or that, "They hardly ever mention Jesus.

Puhlease!!! Faith is foremost to all catholics, for what good are works without faith? It is because of faith that catholics perform works. Even the author notes:

The Catholic connection between faith and works is a far stronger and more reliable one. (that that of Luther)

Here are the teachings of the Catholic Church on Faith and Works. Please read them before you hit the reply button ........

Faith and Works

There is perhaps no greater confusion among Roman Catholic Christians and Evangelical Protestant and Pentecostal Christians than that held over the controversy of faith versus good works. This controversy best warrants the balance of scriptures necessary in reading the Word of God to understand what God means for us to know.

The Bible is clear that faith holds a first and prominent role in the salvation of every person.

Heb 10:38

But my just one shall live by faith ...

Heb 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please him (God) ...

The Bible is equally clear on the saving role of good works in the lives of the faithful.

1 Pet 2:12

Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that if they speak of you as evildoers, they may observe your good works and glorify God on the day of visitation.

Rev 2:2

I know your works, your labor, and your endurance ...

Mt 5:16

Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.

Mt 16:27

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

Mt 25:34-36

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

The Bible makes it clear that there must be a balanced relationship between our faith and its expression in good works.

James 2:14-18

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

1 Cor 15:58

Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Heb 6:10

For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.

James 2:20-22

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

Mt 16:27

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

1 Cor 3:8

The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor.

Col 3:23-24

Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.

The Bible indicates that it is wrong to disturb the balance of works expressing a life of faith. Man is not saved by faith alone.

James 2:24

See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James 2:26

For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Nor is man saved by works alone.

Rom 9:31-32

Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law ... because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works.

Gal 3:11

And that no one is justified before God by the law is clear, for "the one who is righteous by faith will live."

The Bible declares that salvation is a gift of God alone and constantly reaffirms that faith has a primary role in that salvation.

Eph 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.

Heb 6:1

Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,

Heb 9:14

... how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.

2 Tim 1:9

He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:4-5

... the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy.

Rom 3:27-28

What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith. For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Gal 2:16

(We) know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

The constant teaching of the Roman Catholic Church on these Scriptures was clearly restated on January 13, 1547.

Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. VIII

When the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, "without which it is impossible to please God" and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, "if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise," as the Apostle says, "grace is no more grace."

The Council also reiterated the relationship of good works to man justified by faith.

Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. XVI

Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: "Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name"; and "Do not lose confidence, which hath a great reward." Hence, to those who work well "unto the end" and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.

[WriteOn]

St. John of the Cross bump

[Wrigley]

I hope you are successful. I was worried that Nyer didn't see the problem with that teaching.

And as you work toward fixing that problem, I hope you become more Protestant in your thinking.

[f.Christian]

Good News For The Day

‘Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross, scorning its shame’ (Hebrews 12:2)

"Strange association of 'joy' with the ordeal of a cross! The New Testament's presentation of Jesus focuses on his sacrificial life, culminating in crucifixion. This is because those who wrote came to the conclusion that the cross was the clue to his whole life's meaning."

"But the above Scripture hints that there is a mysterious linkage between felicity and sorrow. Some of the world's saddest people have been very funny. Mark Twain is an example of this. Charles Spurgeon was full of humor but also given to terrible depression. Weeping and laughter are not mutually exclusive."

"Well I remember the night after my dad's burial. All the family had gathered in the old homestead. We were grieving together, but someone found an old slide projector, with pictures to match. So began an evening of raucous mirth interspersed with tears, as we reviewed our family history, with so much of dad in it."

"In his book, 'Heretics," G.K. Chesterton shows that early Christians werev much more boisterous than their contemporaries in Greek culture. Classical Greeks believed in moderation, restraint of excess in joy or sorrow. Chesterton concedes that pagans knew how to be joyous about many things, but it took the... gospel(link)---to introduce poor men to 'cosmic contentment'..."

"He who follows Christ will know sorrow, but it will be sorrow intersected with delight, and grief that despite itself, is forced to yield the fruit of rejoicing."

[Desdemona]

And as you work toward fixing that problem, I hope you become more Protestant in your thinking.

As a matter of fact, I've become 1000 times more Catholic as the glaring errors and humanness of protestantism has become more obvious.

[NYer]

In my case, I am reasonably inquisitive and have a working knowledge of the theological / historical issues.

.... and, hence, the bump to you! Welcome aboard. Have you had a chance to read this through? Have you ever, in the course of your studies, read the writings of the Church Fathers?

[LiteKeeper]

read later

[Desdemona]

I have to run. I did pick up, among other things, the old Aquinas mini-book "My Way of Life". I'm looking forward to it.

Thank again.

[NYer]

I have been unable to reconcile many of the positions of the Catholic Church with what I hold to be true. While the core of Catholic teaching might be construed as right, there is enough I feel that is wrong that is added on to it.

Thank you for your input to this discussion. As I mentioned to another forum member, it seems that the majority of converts to catholicism are theology students who took their studies "one question" further. In doing so, they hoped to disprove the doctrines of the catholic church, when in fact they discovered what they have labeled "truth".

Are you such a student of theology? Would you care to share with the other members of this forum, those positions of the catholic church that you find to be in error.

[drstevej]

***Have you ever, in the course of your studies, read the writings of the Church Fathers? ***

Substantial portions of the Fathers. It is a massive corpus of literature.

***Have you had a chance to read this through?***

Haven't read the article, have been out of town and am catching up on other things. Perhaps I can get to it later.

Have you read Calvin's Institutes?

[NYer]

Have you heard of Alex Jones? He was a pastor who converted to Catholicism and brought part of his congregation with him. He also converted after researching the early Church Fathers.

Yes!!! He was a guest with Fr. Mitch Pacwa on his new EWTN live show, back in September. He recounted the story of his conversion. He spoke about having read the Church Fathers, deciding to convert and coming home to announce this to his wife. Her reaction was ... "how will we support ourselves?" As an Evangelical minister, he was the family's sole source of support. His response was "I don't know but God has called me to conversion and I trust that He will provide for us". Apparently the diocese provided them with a stipend to live on until he could find a job. The money had just about run out when the phone rang one day. It was someone in the diocesan office offering him a position to "bring back" lapsed catholics. He was absolutely ecstatic, since this is his gift.

The most moving part of the program, however, was the call in session. One of the callers asked Mr. Jones how he had felt with regard to the Eucharist, since, as a protestant, he had not believed in the Real Presence. Mr. Jones bowed his head for a few seconds, raised it again and spoke about his confessor, Fr. Dennis. When the day of Mr. Jones First Communion approached, he went to Fr. Dennis and asked if he could receive it on his knees. There was not a dry eye in the audience!

This story supports what I have been saying all along. It is the students of theology who go one step further and discover the true Catholic Church, who fully grasp the faith. Cradle catholics are raised in the faith, rarely questioning and simply accepting whatever is taught.

Thank you for bringing Alex Jones into this thread. I believe that catholics will be brought back to their faith by converts such as Scott Hahn, Peter Kreeft and Alex Jones. Mother Agelica, God bless her, has provided a medium through which their messages can be spread.

[Salvation]

** I explored all the cases of claimed contradiction and found each to he a Protestant misunderstanding.**

BTTT!

[drstevej]

***many Catholics who leave the Church for other denominations are looking for something easier than Catholicism.***

Honestly, the many former Catholics in churches where I have served as pastor came, by their testimony, as the result of conversion. If, using your terminology, "something easier" means trusting the finished work of Christ and not my own self effort then I would agree with you that they found something easier. However, I find their dedication and willingness to serve the Lord quite high. They serve out of gratitude.

I do find that many of them do not have a detailed knowledge of Catholic theology but are interested in being taught the Bible.

I do not mean this post to be antagonistic. These are my honest observation after 25 years of ministry (mostly in the South).

[NYer]

many Catholics who leave the Church for other denominations are looking for something easier than Catholicism.

Hear! Hear!

[Rambler]

Thanks for the great article. At one time my Catholic faith was badly shaken after I had a number of faith based discussions with a new Southern Baptist. I was a Catholic and knew Cathoic beliefs. The problem was I didn't know the "why" of those beliefs. The discussions made me do a lot of study to discover the "why", and now I am a much better/stronger Catholic for it.

[lockeliberty]

Your non-response to my direct question is what gives Protestants cause for alarm. Instead of directly dealing with the question you turn it back on me. You see, I know whence Mr. Freeth comes from since I grew up in the same tradition. We Dutch Calvinists are a cerebral bunch not taking much stock in non-objective rituals or emotional appeals. Mr. Freeth obviously thought this was something he needed in his journey with God as evidenced by:

Though I thought it pagan rather than Christian, the richness and mystery of Catholicism fascinated me

Mr. Freeth's need for mystery and rituals is what convinced him of the rightness of Catholcism. The appeal to historicity as the objective ground for the role of the Catholic Church is built on a shakey foundation. As with most Catholic apologists he ignores the abmonitations throughout history in the name of the Catholic Church. Thus your non-response only adds to the evidence of how in the name of the Catholic Church questions of problems within the church are pushed away with the pronouncement that the Catholic Church is without error.

If the Holy Roman Catholic Church had been so pure there would have never been a Protestant revolution. God's invisible Church has nothing to do with any particular rituals or mysteries except the mystery of Election. So, to answer your question directly as an example to you, the journey of one man in his search for the truth is much less an indictment than 90% of the Catholics who do not understand justification by faith.

[Wrigley]

So, to answer your question directly as an example to you, the journey of one man in his search for the truth is much less an indictment than 90% of the Catholics who do not understand justification by faith.

Hear, hear.

[NYer]

Your non-response to my direct question is what gives Protestants cause for alarm.

Really!? Where and what is your direct question? You posed NO question ... rather, you made a comment. My response to your comment was to point out that you had obviously NOT read the entire post. Rather you did, what many others have done before you. You skimmed through the post looking to extrapolate anything that could be perceived of negative nature ... and there was only one. Had you read the entire post, you would have picked up on Mr. Kreeft's own response. Had you read further you might have also found the following ......

I was also dissatisfied with Luther's teaching that justification was a legal fiction on God's part rather than a real event in us; that God looks on the Christian in Christ, sees only Christ's righteousness, and legally counts or imputes Christ's righteousness as ours. I thought it had to be as Catholicism says, that God actually imparts Christ to us, in baptism and through faith (these two are usually together in the New Testament).

I do not have a degree in Divinity studies, do you?