Free Republic

I find it interesting that you guys keep trying to dissuade people from the Third party option. Your rhetoric is always either 'elect a democrat' or 'stay home.' One wonders whot the real trolls are here.

You're right, he isn't stupid. He just won't face reality. America didn't agree to his globalist BS. He and his are trying to shove it down our throats just as they have continuously tried to do and gotten away with largely because the two parties have the same goals on that count.

America did not want NAFTA. We didn't want the WTO, etc.. And yet one by one they shove it down our throats and pretend it's ok while refusing to heed the screaming on all sides to correct themselves. They will not. They will do precisely what the hell they want to do while they're up there and serve us pretense as an attempt at pacification just as was done tonight.

The third party route is the only way you'll ever weed these traitors out of Washington short of civil war.

So what's new. These jerks want the National ID card as part of their New World Order. They've been trying to saddle Americans with it since the 60s and they've used every excuse under the sun in trying to push it upon us. We just had to tell them no after 9/11 which was yet another excuse they employed to try and convince us we need it. We have a system in place for these things already. Trouble is, no one is enforcing the laws so it doesn't work as a result. This is all a pile of transparent horsehockey. Impeach him.

LoL. Yeah, he abandoned the discussion for whatever reason. Not sure I fully understand it. He sent me a very kind email after doing so.

Sorry, this is making my blood boil!

Presenting evidence and presenting spin are not one in the same thing. Present evidence instead of spin and you might have something. The telling thing is that if you had any evidence that stood on it's own, you wouldn't be selling spin instead.. across the board.

Interestingly, Legal immigration turns temporary workers into permenant workers and permanant citizen taxpayers.

How is it any worse than what American businesses and politicians are doing. Economic terrorism is where you find it. I just think you have to deal with it in all its forms.

failing again to grasp reality or deal with third party option as a valid move. They just don't want to imagine that the public would cut both parties loose and start over.

Good idea. It isn't that America *can't* boot these people.. This is a *can do* nation. Bush doesn't want to.. Who do these people think they're kidding!

They're all broken records. They'll say anything to get by with breaking the law and maintaining the lawbreaking indefinitely. National security and the Rule of law mean something to Republicans unless you dangle a dollar under their greedy noses. Cheap Whores is all they are. Selling out America for their own Greed. Traitors I think is the active terminology. Impeach the bastard.

It isn't votes, it's cheap illegal labor. They want the benefits of their crime at any cost and want to BS us to keep it. They don't give a hoot in hades about the votes or yours and mine would matter to them. It's the money, bud!

If your statement means what it seems to mean, then you were just let off the hook by scripture in the three passages I cited to you. You aren't advocating for the accuser that I can see. We're talking about the validity of Faith only in light of Judgement already passed by God via prophecy and the like. But that could have as easily been contested by asking how if faith alone could redeem satan, then faith plus works could as well. There is no valid challenge there.

Just one? How about Three..

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The devil did misrepresent scripture because, as I noted, Scripture proscribes tempting God which is precisely what he was suggesting by his citation that Christ should do. That is misrepresenting the intent of the passage. Letter verses spirit of the passage. I will note again, that scripture deals with this specifically.

Acts? no. Content. Spirit of the law verses letter of the law. This is spoken to directly in scripture. One can be word smart and content dumb. One can also be word smart and content decietful. The latter is what Satan was guilty of in implying in his use of the citation that it is ok to tempt God. It is not. In the twisting of one passage he violates another. Christ properly threw back at Satan that which he was violated by twisting of intent or 'spirit' of the passage.
Scripture proves scripture.

This is why the scriptures are so important. It is how we know what is true and what is not with regard to proper doctrine. Misconstruing what a passage means will cause violations elsewhere that may be utterly unforseen if one does not know scripture. Ecclesiastes, for example, tells us that when people physically die (righteous or unrighteous), so long as they be dead they can have nothing to do ever in what goes on under the sun.. Ie amongst the living. So, say someone then tries to proffer that one can communicate to or with the physically dead. You instantly know that to be bunk because of Ecclesiastes. Whatever might be cited there would be proven a manipulation or false reading because the issue is already proscribed specifically.

The problem with your question is that it doesn't stand true for the fallen angels and Satan. God hung himself on a cross to ransom mankind. Scripture tells us specifically what God has ruled will be the end for Satan and his ilk. I noted before that I did not understand the question you were asking.
It is now clear that you somehow think Satan would be able to be redeemed. Where you get this from is beyond me.

You say, 'surely non of God's creation, including fallen angels..' I would have to direct you to Revelation, Daniel, etc who speak directly to this matter. The fallen angels and Satan are beyond redemption. God has already judged their fate. That is what seperates them from us in this matter.

I am not wrong. Misquoting something is more than whether you get the words right or not. One name: Strom Thurmond. Ring any bells. A 'citation' in which the words were right as reported in the MSM while their meaning had nothing to do with reality.. Was the author properly quoted? No. Communication is more than a string of words - it is the intent of the words and their meaning in context that matters. So being verbally accurate is not the same as being true to the content. Your final remark is true; but, it is true because of what I just noted. In the larger scheme of things, Satan was verbally correct while being content inaccurate as to what is meant. The content becomes inaccurate by turning it into a temptation of God.

I've experienced similar in the past few days when someone cited me and misconstrued what I said. He cited me verbally; but, what he read into the commentary was in no way the intent of what was stated. So did he cite me accurately -no. Verbal precision verses content precision. You cannot divorce the two and do a citation justice.

The concepts of good and evil are no more difficult to understand than your opinion verses mine or Valvoline vs. Quaker state. They are options on the table that can be chosen from. The worth of those options is in what they produce.

..After all, the Devil can quote what is written also (Matthew 4:1-11) to suit his own needs..

Correction. The devil misquoted the scriptures to get what he wanted by misrepresentation. Christ corrected him. The misrepresentation that Satan was making in 4:6 is that it is ok to tempt God. Christ corrected him. So Satan can twist scripture; but, he isn't using scripture itself (truth) for his own ends. He perverts it and uses the perversion to his own end so that he uses evil to his end where Christ uses Good to his.

To get specific here as to dilution of truth with evil being evil, one only need understand that putting poison in a volume of water poisons the volume as a whole, not in part. Pure water will not kill you unless you breath it rather than drink it. But add deadly poison and it will kill you. So in corrupting part you corrupt the whole.. but only if you accept the corruption. You have to drink it before it is deadly. With scripture, you have to both be ignorant of what is actually there or neglect what you know is there and willingly accept the corrupted version.

The principles are quite simple. The complexity is in the perversion.

It's obvious, at least to me, that Christ and the Devil know who each other are.

Indeed. Christ made Satan. That is made clear in the Old testament scripture. So, they most certainly know each other. They also know who is in authority over who. In your own citation of Matthew 4, you'll note that Satan doesn't command Christ, he suggests or asks. Christ does command Satan and Satan has to obey. Satan leaves when commanded to. This does not show that Good automatically triumphs over evil, though. What it does show is that the Creator has the ultimate authority. The Creator is also purely righteous, truthful and *good*, so when invoking Christ's authority, those inate attributes of God prevail for us in a given situation. Good prevails when the Authority and will of God are behind it. That is of course a general statement; but, true.

If belief alone is the only qualifier, then how does that explain the Devil

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Mankind is God's prized creation. Satan, of pride, didn't care much for this idea and to take vengeance on God, Satan works to destroy the prized creation.

Now, to understand the significance you have to understand how we got to a faith only approach. The old covenant approach was to offer sacrifices through the priesthood as a payment to God for sin. If you disobeyed, you had to make a sin offering to get a covering for your sin before God lest his vengeance or the result of the sin be upon the person. People often don't realize there are spiritual and physical consequences to sin that they carry with them until it is dealt with and sometimes long after forgiveness has been achieved. That aside, going through a priest had some rather considerable and predictable problems.

By the time Christ took human form as Jesus, the priesthood of the old covenant had devolved to selling sacrificial animals to people. Supply and demand is obviously going to dictate the price as much as the greed of the men involved. Can't pay their price - no sin offering. And if memory serves, after paying their price, you also payed for the offering to be made. So, what God had intended to be a matter of freedom had been so perverted as to put men's souls in the balance over money. That is evil and that is what freedom of choice will get you when men of no ethical, moral or Godly inhibitions are involved. You'd say, "But they're priests". Right. They're also men.

Christ entered the scene and turned the old sacrificial system on its ear and threw it out the window. Gone. He offered himself once to do away with the priesthood's continual sacrifices and thereby the reliance on the priesthood and the extortion that was involved. If there is a single offering by a single priest, no priesthood can hold your sins for ransom via the coinpurse. Conversely, the rich cannot merely buy their way into righteousness by affording the offering. By making the offering a matter of faith - believing it and accepting it, the ultimate responsibility without exception then lays with the individual. There is no way to say, "But, the offering cost too much." This one cost nothing, it's a free gift from God as the scriptures plainly teach.

With the cost issue and priesthood out of the way and responsibility put squarely into the court of the individual, the attack plan has to change. And the attacks are, again, predictable. Salvation through Christ hangs on a number of things. One, you have to understand and believe that Christ is God in the form of Man. Two, Christ established a system that has no ongoing blood sacrifice and sealed it into existance with a single sacrifice that mooted any such need all by itself. Three, With no blood sacrifice, there is also no established priesthood needed for such a sacrifice. Four, Christ is the singular head of the covenant and church. Five, The sacrifice he made is a free gift. Six, salvation, according to the apostles and Christ is accepted as a gift by believing and confessing the Gospel message. You simply choose to believe it, then confess that you do and you are saved. These are the big and obvious points.

The place where Satan enters into this is to pervert the above truths. So, groups calling themselves christian develope priesthoods and claim you are subject to the priests who offer a perpetuated sacrifice (sometimes for money). Some deny that Christ is God and relegate him to prophet only status. Some attempt to claim headship over the Body of christ in Christ's place - a Vicar. Many hold that you cannot read the scriptures for yourself and must subjugate your mind to their 'magisterium' or elective body who has sole right to tell you what you believe and what your scriptures say. Etc.. In most cases, these things are not found as independant, single agents. They are usually seen as groups of attacks within any given cultic sect. Denying the faith alone approach is an attempt to remove individual answerability and subjugate the person, once again, to the priesthood - a model Christ destroyed.

and how, if such belief only yields good, does that explain the subsequent initial manifestation of evil by him.

Who said that belief alone only manifests Good? You aren't operating in a vacuum. Belief alone manifests the end goal of salvation in the person; but, externally, it turns the person into a target. I think that answers your question. If it doesn't, then please clarify.