Can some one show me how to look up a history refrence number such as
("Hist. eccl.", III, xxxvi)

That would be Eusebius's History of the Church, Book 3, Chapter 36.

Now, it's time for me to go back into lurker mode.

Pray for John Paul II

Now, it's time for me to go back into lurker mode

Thanks dig, and for the new thread, and have a good week.

I wouldn't usually post anything this long unless I wrote it myself, but in my studies I ran onto this and couldn't stop thinking about it.

It sums up how I and many others see the Church that Christ built, and this was written somewhere around 2-300AD, when the Church was developing just as Christ had planned.

The condition and manners of the Christians in this age are most beautifully described by the unknown author of the "Epistola ad Diognetum" in the early part of the second century.3 "The Christians," he says, "are not distinguished from other men by country, by language, nor by civil institutions. For they neither dwell in cities by themselves, nor use a peculiar tongue, nor lead a singular mode of life. They dwell in the Grecian or barbarian cities, as the case may be; they follow the usage of the country in dress, food, and the other affairs of life. Yet they present a wonderful and confessedly paradoxical conduct. They dwell in their own native lands, but as strangers. They take part in all things as citizens; and they suffer all things, as foreigners. Every foreign country is a fatherland to them, and every native land is a foreign. They marry, like all others; they have children; but they do not cast away their offspring. They have the table in common, but not wives. They are in the flesh, but do not live after the flesh. They live upon the earth, but are citizens of heaven. They obey the existing laws, and excel the laws by their lives. They love all, and are persecuted by all. They are unknown, and yet they are condemned. They are killed and are made alive. They are poor and make many rich. They lack all things, and in all things abound. They are reproached, and glory in their reproaches. They are calumniated, and are justified. They are cursed, and they bless. They receive scorn, and they give honor. They do good, and are punished as evil-doers. When punished, they rejoice, as being made alive. By the Jews they are attacked as aliens, and by the Greeks persecuted; and the cause of the enmity their enemies cannot tell. In short, what the soul is in the body, the Christians are in the world. The soul is diffused through all the members of the body, and the Christians are spread through the cities of the world. The soul dwells in the body, but it is not of the body; so the Christians dwell in the world, but are not of the world. The soul, invisible, keeps watch in the visible body; so also the Christians are seen to live in the world, but their piety is invisible. The flesh hates and wars against the soul, suffering no wrong from it, but because it resists fleshly pleasures; and the world hates the Christians with no reason, but that they resist its pleasures. The soul loves the flesh and members, by which it is hated; so the Christians love their haters. The soul is inclosed in the body, but holds the body together; so the Christians are detained in the world as in a prison; but they contain the world. Immortal, the soul dwells in the mortal body; so the Christians dwell in the corruptible, but look for incorruption in heaven. The soul is the better for restriction in food and drink; and the Christians increase, though daily punished. This lot God has assigned to the Christians in the world; and it cannot be taken from them." The community of Christians thus from the first felt itself, in distinction from Judaism and from heathenism, the salt of the earth, the light of the world, the city of God set on a hill, the immortal soul in a dying body; and this its impression respecting itself was no proud conceit, but truth and reality, acting in life and in death, and opening the way through hatred and persecution

I am truly stunned that there are so many apparent believers in Christ who can actually take the pope and catholicism seriously and reverently with a history like you have! It would be laughable except I believe you are really serious. Modern catholicism teaches only that an organization can recover from the most abominable debauchery and murders and still pretend to be a moral force. I'm beside myself.

To: OLD REGGIE
The almsot complete silence of Protestants about the role of Mary in the incarnation lend to "spiritualize" Jesus to the point of creating a kind of unitarianism of the Seonc Person of the Trinity. Luther managed to strike a balance in his devotion Mary, but those Protestants of the Puritan tradition go to extremes in ignoring her. ------------------------------------------------------------

What difference does it make what the "Protestants" think or say?
This has absoloutely nothing to do with the development of the "Cult of Mary".
Are you saying Catholics emphasize Mary because Protestants ignore her?

OK, you're really a devout Catholic figuring to reap sympathy for your faith by posing as a protestant nitwit, right?

JHarvard Can some one show me how to look up a history refrence number such as ("Hist. eccl.", III, xxxvi) ===========================================================

Do you have a good search engine? Google is a good one>
Using Google and this argument in the Advanced Search feature:
Hist. eccl., III, xxxvi
Google returned six possibilities. I suspect this is the one you were looking for.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Ignatius of Antioch <... We find these seven mentioned not only by Eusebius ("Hist. eccl.", III, xxxvi) but also by St. Jerome (De viris illust., c. xvi). Of later collections of ... Description: (Catholic Encyclopedia)

It isn't likely you'd use the search argument exactly as shown in this example. It is necessary to experiment with various search engines to find the "best" search methods.

OK, you're really a devout Catholic figuring to reap sympathy for your faith by posing as a protestant nitwit, right?

OK, that makes some sense. But it also means that CGTGOC is really a devout Protestant posing as a RC nitwit in order to generate sympathy for his faith. He's so clever. Who would have guessed?

I have no denominational tie and was raised catholic. Pentecostal was my last and final involvement with organized religion. I want to hear someone defend the catholic church. I can't wait! Pretend you are speaking to all those murdered during the inquisition suddenly come back to life and aren't real happy about it. Doesn't that set a nice context?

And for crying out loud stop talking about Mary! She's a footnote, people, get over it. She wasn't even important enough to get to speak to God like Moses did, just an angel. If she was so important, why didn't she write a gospel or two? Not even one stinking epistle. Queen Esther had more on the ball than she did, IMHO. Why no statues for her?

I am amazed that anyone could take the pretensions of the United States serious, given its history of rape, rapacity, pillage and murder. It is, by all accounts, guilty of the most abominable crimes--including slavery, genocide, and the carper-bombing of civilian populations.

Of course, this priggish view of U.S. history may be cockeyed and generally self-serving but..hey!

New thread at last!! Thanks, dignan .

...and by your form of logic all Protestants must be forever willing to defend the Klu Klux Klan? Just which doctrine of the Catholic Church do you believe venerates the inquisition?

Aw, come on. A better comparison would be Atila the Hun, only he didn't pretend to be serving God. He didn't go around and put people to death for posessing a bible that was readable and his influence is negligible today.

Re Thr 141post 10
I recommend that you try lurking on the previous 140 threads to get a good view of both sides of your argument . Some "Proddies' say that "millions of Christians were murdered by the Roman catholic Church" The "Caddies" say that the numbers are so exaggerated as to be considered to be just plain false . So, we really agree to disagree about the historical statistics (traditions of men?). Check back after you have explored the earlier posts .
BTW, tell us all about being "raised catholic".

Queen Esther had more on the ball than she did, IMHO. Why no statues for her? It's those $%&@ Jews! They keep tearing them down!

The veneration lies in pretending the unspeakable atrocities were somehow bumps in the road. You believe the pope is decended from Peter so doesn't that mean Peter is somewhat responsible? Can you simply cut out part of your history and still claim decendency? Just what was it that went so terribly wrong? How could a church become such a beast and still survive? Anything else I know of that was that evil is gone.

The "Caddies" say that the numbers are so exaggerated as to be considered to be just plain false .

The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. Come on, you can do it.

Maybe they talk about Mary because,(aside from the scriptural and traditional considerations discussed on previous threads) God permits her to "visit" and communiacte with us humans several times such as at Fatima, Portugal (only about 40000 people witnessed the "miracle of the sun" in 1917}.
Or maybe at Lourdes, France, where god allows cures to be regularly done through her intercession . These are FACTS.