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Ditto for NEWT "THE PROGRESSIVE". Is there any way you guys can dust Cain off and bring him back? Or Palin? Or West? Does Paul have the steam to cook these two turkeys?

Newt-Romney, Mitt-Gingrich....six of one, half a dozen of the other.....both of these butterballs occupy the same freezer bin. Do either of those birds have the guts to cut government in half? Because that is what the math says is necessary. I seriously doubt it.

What you simply MUST understand

Government handouts occur in Canada too, and it drives me stark, raving, crazy. The average taxpaying Joe on the street has absolutely no say in any of these payouts. It is criminal what goes on. They hand it out to Theatre Groups and the Opera so they can get cheap tickets, or to Jazz Festivals, or Auto Racing events so everybody can afford to watch noisy cars go in a circle. Sheesh, individuals should be responsible for their own entertainment....not the government.

In fact, our Legislators shouldn't have giveaway money at all. They should only have "internal" funding for the direct operation of departments/agencies and services of those agencies. Even then, the door is wide open for wild spending. It really burns me that none of us have any say in who gets what and how much of OUR money! ....meanwhile, our respective Titanics slip below the waves of the Red Ink Sea.

Glenn Beck recently devoted almost an entire show on Newt and his big government progressivism. If you are a Newt fan and caught the show, it must have been very uncomfortable viewing. Glenn was at his persuasive best.

Well put....and thanks for taking time to enlarge the discussion. Also, may I say that I always appreciate the calm approach to debate, difficult at times with some topics.

As RegulatorCountry above mentioned, people can discuss divine sovereignty vs free will, a mystery at best, for a long time. I happen to prefer somewhere in the middle between the two extremes as realistic.

If, as Christians, we are to face the ultimate battle with evil in the near future, we must band together and, it seems to me, between our many diverse sects, that the best common ground between divine sovereignty and free will lies somewhere around "limited providence", or call it what you will.

In this view, God is most definitely in charge of the world without portraying him as the puppetmaster who manipulates every tiny thing and every one. This approach perhaps better accounts for some of the polarities; for example, Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven"...what is the point of praying that, if God's will is simply being played out as a providential dictate?

Well, I grant you that I'm not sure, but I still tend to zoom out a smidge, bringing God's personal care and powerful involvement in both nature and history, while also leaving room for human freedom and responsibility. Is this so wrong?

Somehow, from the tone of your posts, I get the idea that you feel my beliefs in this particular "side-issue" are a game-changer? Is "proper thinking" on this specific topic essential for salvation? Does a literal reading of providence/free-will change the rules of our eternal prospects? Must we believe in every shred of minute doctrine between the two leather covers to ultimately be with Him? I think not, however laudable it might be.....of course that's opinion talking, opinion full of hope.

The early church fathers were concerned about separating the "wheat from the chaff" too, which resulted in the essentials of Christian belief stated in the Apostles Creed, and others, which I happen to believe with conviction. Why was their final "statement" not 200 pages, instead of one sublime paragraph? Is Christianity really capable of being defined so simply? Well, yes, I believe it so.

So I guess, in summary, I would like to hear your understanding of what precisely are the basic requirements, the real essentials, for Christian salvation? Do you include extreme providence? Do you include Lev 19:28 (I'm being facetious here on Lev, but you get my point)?

Don't make your list too long...reciting such an all-encompassing 'creed' threatens the length of our weekly services, which, at roughly one hour, already has my nephews squirming in the pews!

Your turn.

Yes, I agree with your statements concerning perspective, that of God's, and that of ours. Well said.

Horrible arguments can arise from small points causing rifts and animosity among the various Christian sects, I find it troubling at times. I've been around for a long time, now retired, and have slowly let many of the "sub-issues" slide off my table, in favour of simply promoting the core beliefs....concensus attainable by virtue of the Creeds, if you will. And if you boil the Creeds down to John 3:16, there is hope for me yet!

Are you saying that God is unable to permit me the choice to sin or repent? Could he not will a choice for us, while not actually, directly causing it to happen one way or the other?

The "meticulous providence" that you portend is a slippery slope. The idea of a "detailed plan" could be deemed against the message of the Bible, since God himself becomes, um, what, 'incredible'... if what he's been fighting against with His power all that time, and for which he sacrificed his only Son, was actually all part and parcel of his own eternal counsel(?). Is he the author of all evil?

I'm more in favour of His being "self-limiting" in the sense that He could control nature and history in minute detail, but chooses not to. Is this not still under the umbrella of providence?

What of the calls to repent?

Mat 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

Mar 6:12 So they went out and preached that all should repent.

Luk 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Rev 16:11 They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their sufferings, but nevertheless they still refused to repent of their deeds.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach this message: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

Don't these imply that a decision is being requested? Aren't "Decisions for Christ" the language that is used by the evangelists when seeking to save souls?

Have at me, I'm always open to perspective.

Photoshop vs Makeup, two very similar activities really, and with the same tools....brushes, pencils, spray cans, color palettes, layers, etc. Also, a skilled workers with both can achieve miracles, while the clumsy can make a horrible mess.

You have a lot of blather there for what are basically two misconceptions. In my mind it is quite simple.

How could a loving God send people to hell?

1. God does not "send" people to hell; he simply honors their personal decision. When we choose to sin, rather than repent, we seal our fate.

2. God does not send "people" to hell, he sends sinners. Using the word 'people' is an attempt to imply they are innocent, and they are not.

So in summary....

God does not send people to hell, he simply honors the choice of sinners.

You seem bitter and angry. I will assume it's solely the jobs and expenses that have you so obviously hot under the collar? Regardless, I'll try my best to explain my own personal opinions.

I happen to be one of those Canadians who loves Quebec and its French speaking culture, and I don't even live there. Furthermore, I believe that our relationship between the English and French languages is one of the defining aspects of the Canadian "zeitgeist". It is not without its problems. As race is to Americans, and class is to the Brits, I think that language is at or near the center of what the rest of the world sees as our being uniquely Canadian. We are well-known internationally for our peace-keeping skills, as conflict negotiators, and as arbitrators, etc. This stems from a rich history of living peacefully with those who are different.

Most of all, however, I don't want to see this great country succumb to hatred, split in two, and end up sliding into the genocidal swamp of a Bosnia/Serbia. In order for two different cultures to live together harmoniously, concessions are necessary. And yes, it gets expensive. In my opinion, the money you mentioned is money well-spent. While it may seem high to many of us now, the coming Canadian debt and monetary crisis will certainly cure the abuses; in not only this issue, but in the entire governmental system.

As far as work goes, most Federal jobs outside of Quebec demand bilingualism, yes. Are the people selected for those positions smarter than uni-English workers, or uni-French workers? Yes, they are. Smart enough to work hard and do whatever it takes to be successful.....and becoming fluently bilingual IS hard work. I applaud them, and suggest we hold them up as models of Canadian industriousness and a challenge to our education system.

Respond if you will, but we're definitely of opposing views.

As it stands now, roughly 1/3 of all spending comes from borrowed money.

Deficit Spending

Is the borrowed money only for specific items, or is borrowed money spread across the whole spectrum? You imply that certain taxes fund certain items. Is that true?

Didn't like my last one? Here is Scenario 2:

Trump's "investigators" uncovered conclusive proof of Obama's fraud. He uses the high-profile national televised debate to make the announcement, something like this:

Trump (to Gingrich): Do you share my belief that Obama may be ineligible to occupy the office of President?

Newt: There are a sizable number of citizens who say that, but I think I would need more evidence before making that statement.

Trump: What if I told you that I am now in possession of that proof?

Newt: Are you going to share that with us tonight?

Trump: Yes I am, and here it is.........etc., etc.

Instant ballistic furor!

Obama, through his mentor, George Soros, have hired the liberal progressive Donald Trump to staple the big glossy label of “BIRTHER” to each and every GOP candidate, thus ensuring that the Center of the voting population sees them as nuts and flakes, thus handing a second term to the big Zero. I feel nothing good can come of this sham debate.

Should read...

"...in all their offices across..."

It's jerks like this who ignite the Separatist feelings in Quebec and fan the flames of the old movement to want a country ripped in two.

Connards! Leave it alone for God's sakes. It's been so nice and quiet these past 10 years. Big deal if Les Feds require bilingualism in all offices across the country. I've gotten used to it. Alors quoi?

Next on the list:

Euthanasia tablets, or for the unwilling...in coffee-creamer form.

I don’t see anything good coming from a Trump-moderated debate. Can you imagine....Trump asks them all about the “birther” business, and tar & feathers them all. Just what the GOP needs. I still think he’s a liberal Trojan Horse.

It is probably worth the 1 in 1 Billion shot.

It's a 1 in 50 shot, isn't it? Those are actually pretty good odds, compared to buying a Lottery ticket or something. You just need one to fall, then it'll be a stampede by the media to make Biden out as a genius. Why, they might even give him his third brain surgery to fix him up.

...so what’s Obama going to do?

Well, if I were him, I'd take a 14 day "vacation" in Hawaii right about now, and clean up all the loose ends.....oh, wait, he IS going out there. Um, never mind.

Would the OWS losers be smart enough to file all the necessary papers to form/register, etc., a national party? There isn’t much intelligence on display at any of those occupied parks. Who controls their legal arm?