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Interesting thread. I missed it the first time around. One can always tell who has firsthand real experience with a Ouija board.

My personal observation has been that most people who actually get a response are so gullible. They would never believe everything that a stranger off the street tells them, but let it come from an unknown spirit through a Ouija board and they believe everything hook-line-and-sinker.

My own personal experience was when I was about 13 years old (many years ago). Nobody was a bigger skeptic than me. I surprised myself and had to get away from it immediately. I wasn't religious at all at the time, but I just knew that I needed to get away from it and that there was real power there that shouldn't be played around with. It turns out that I was right.

I always tell skeptics that it's real and they shouldn't mess with it, but if they really want to prove it to themselves they can. Just know that you've been warned.

ping

"Who has both the physical presence and acting gravitas to play Galt?"

Edward Norton surprised me in The Illusionist.

p.s.

You might want to look into Matthew 28:19 as well:

Matt 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, ***baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost***:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV

--------------------------------

"While no MS. of the first three centuries is inexistence, we do have the writings of at least two men who did actually possess, or had access to MSS. much earlier than our earliest now in existence. And there were others who quoted the passage of Matthew 28:19 in those early times.

Who were these men? When did they write? Has they access to very early MSS.? Were they reliable and exact? How did they quote Matthew 28:19? These are the questions that must be answered."

*snip*

"Eusebius As A Witness:

There were several men of this name. The one with whom we are concerned is known as Eusebius Pamphili, or Eusebius of Caesarea. He was born about 270 A.D. and died about 340 A.D. He lived in times of gross spiritual darkness, he was a Trinitarian, and later in life he assisted in the preparation of the Nicene Creed...."

*snip*

" According to F.C. Conybeare, "Eusebius cites this text again and again in his works written between 300 and 336, namely in his long commentaries on the Psalms, on Isaiah, his Demonstratio Evangelica, his Theophany ...in his famous history of the Church, and in his panegyric of the emperor Constantine. I have, after a moderate search in these works of Eusebius, found eighteen citations of Matthew xxviii. 19, and always in the following form: "

"Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you."

from:

http://jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/catholic/matthew2819.html

Why would one of the greatest trinitarians leave out the greatest proof-text of the trinity from his writings?. Because it wasn't in the manuscripts that he had access to? Do a google search, there's plenty more out there.

" 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. "

If you do some research you'll find that this trinity "proof text" doesn't really exist and was a later addition. Even the trinitarian commentaries admit it.

----------------------------------------------

"1 John 5:7-8
7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The text of this verse should read, "Because there are three that bear record". The remainder of the verse is spurious. Not a single manuscript contains the trinitarian addition before the fourteenth century, and the verse is never quoted in the controversies over the Trinity in the first 450 years of the church era.

8. The three witnesses are the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

"The trinity of witnesses furnish one testimony" (Plummer, The Epistles, p. 116) namely that Jesus Christ came in the flesh to die for sin that men might live."

(from The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1962 by Moody Press)

------------------------------------------------

"1 John 5:7
There are three that bear record] The FATHER, who bears testimony to his Son; the WORD or Logos (NT:3056), who bears testimony to the Father; and the HOLY SPIRIT, which bears testimony to the Father and the Son. And these three are one in essence, and agree in the one testimony, that Jesus came to die for, and give life to, the world. But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every manuscript of this letter written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve. It is missing in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, AEthiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, etc., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the Vulgate; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin.

The words, as they exist in all the Greek MSS. with the exception of the Codex Montfortii, are the following:

"6. This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.
9. If we receive the witness of man, the witness of God is greater, etc."

The words that are omitted by all the MSS., the above excepted, and all the versions, the Vulgate excepted, are these:

[In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one, and there are three which bear witness in earth.]

To make the whole clearer, that every reader may see what has been added, I shall set down these verses, with the inserted words in parentheses.

"6. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7. For there are three that bear record (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.
8. And there are three that bear witness in earth), the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one.
9. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater, etc."

(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Biblesoft)

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"1 John 5:7
Two or three witnesses were required by law to constitute adequate testimony. The only Greek manuscripts, in any form, which support the words, "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one: and there are three that bear witness in earth," are the Montfortianus of Dublin, copied from the modern Latin Vulgate; the Revianus, copied from the Complutensian Polyglot; a manuscript at Naples, with the words added in the margin by a recent hand; Ottobonianus, 298, of the fifteenth century, the Greek of which is a translation of the accompanying Latin. All the old versions omit the words. The oldest manuscripts of the Vulgate omit them, the earliest Vulgate manuscript which has them being Wizanburgensis, 99. of the eighth century. A Scholium quoted in Matthaei shows that the words did not arise from fraud; for all Greek manuscripts ("there are three that bear record"), the Scholiast notices, have "three," masculine, because the three things (the Spirit, the water, and the blood) are SYMBOLS OF THE TRINITY. To this Cyprian, 196, refers: 'Of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it is written, "And these three are one" ' (a unity)."

(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)

my apologies if this has already been covered:

1 John 3:1-3
3:1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is.
3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
NASB

1 John 3:1-3
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
KJV

---------------------------------------

1 Cor 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Heb 2:7-18
7 Thou (God) madest him (Jesus) a little lower than the angels; thou (God) crownedst him (Jesus) with glory and honour, and didst set him (Jesus) over the works of thy (God's) hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
KJV

ping

bump for later

"It's amazing, every FSBOer Freeper can sell a home like nothing. But in America, over 8 out of 10 fail. In my experience, I practically never see a FSBO sell at a price higher than what they would have netted with a Realtor."

Another anecdote for you:

When we wanted to sell our house with some property in a rural area, we signed with the same realtor that we bought it through years earlier. After 6 months of him trying to talk our price down and not getting any response at all, we found out that he hadn't even put the place on the MLS or advertised AT ALL. His technique was entirely word-of-mouth (and only his mouth).

We found a realtor closer to the city and signed a listing agreement with her. Our place was an unusual old property with river access and a lot of history. We were sure that some city folks with some money would love it.

When we signed the agreement with her, it was understood that all showings would be by appointment only and there would be a certain amount of advertising paid for by the realty company. She immediately put a lock-box on our door and never did any advertising at all. When we questioned her about it, she said that we would have to pay half for any ads.

While we sat and waited for the listing agreement to run out, my wife created a web site for our property. We incuded digital video, historic studies about our property, a map with clickable links to photos of the place and many photos of the house(s) and outbuildings, etc. We handed the web site to the realtor on a silver platter and they still wouldn't advertise our place. They- of course- also put more energy into trying to talk our price down for a quick sale, than trying to sell the property.

The day the listing agreement expired we ran 2 ads that cost us a little less than $500.00. One in the Wash. Post and the other in the NY times. They were one line ads with the web address under the heading of Vacation Properties. We watched the hits on our web site and could see the same people looking at it again and again. We had a showing arranged the first day after the first ad ran. Those people wanted the place but the guy had to talk to his banker about money. The next day we showed the place again. The second group met us the next day and signed a contract for the full listed price. No home inspection. No contigencies at all. We sold the place it 2 days. We had over 25 contacts in the first weekend that the ads ran.

Afterwards, we kicked ourselves for not asking for more money, but the stupid realtors had shaken our confidence so that we left the price where we had started. As it was, they kept trying to get us to lower the price by at least 25%. It became clear to us that all the realtors wanted to do was get the price so low that it would sell quickly and they wouldn't have to do any work or spend any money on ads. For the six weeks following our ad, we had people pestering us to sell to them. We had people trying to fly out from all parts of the country to look at the place. 6 months later, well after the closing, people were still putting notes on the door of the house trying to buy the place from the new owners.

"It intends to creare a new Persian Empire not seen since the days of Axtaterxes. The Achaemenids were stopped by the Greeks from conquering Athens. Who in the West will stop Iran from conquering London? Iran bids to become a world superpower and if it gets the bomb it will be one."

Rev 17:11
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Isa 13:17-19
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

"The scary part is I think Rev 18 and 19 may possibly refer to the US.

why not 17 as well?

...laughed so hard it hurt!

Awww, I *love* Dorie! What an awesome picture.

So, was your conversion from COBOL to Java pleasant or painful? (gotta love those ol' AS400s!)

>>>You mean 'a lot of people believe in things that some man told them to believe'!

>>>You seem to have a difficult time understanding English, maybe if I wrote it ancient Hebrew. The point of the poster, to whom I responded, was that people are fools for believing in something they don't completely understand.

Well aren't you just full of Christian love?? I must not be able to understand english because I never posted to you in the first place, and only responded to your post to me. Any point you may have is totally lost with your hostility.

>>>The point of the poster, to whom I responded, was that people are fools for believing in something they don't completely understand.

Now if I can assume that you even know who you are posting to, and also assume that that poster was me, then I think that you are the one who can't understand English. MY point was NOT "that people are fools for believing in something they don't completely understand". My point was that people were fools for believing in something that is NOT in the Bible.

>>>Since you know so much, go ahead and explain how God can be eternal without sounding like an idiot.

I don't have to explain it if it's written plainly in the Bible. The Bible says it, I believe it: that's faith.

Deut 33:27
27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

1 Tim 1:17
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

See how easy that is? Now show me the Trinity in the Bible in the same way. Don't explain it to me, just show me some easy to understand passages or verses.

A lot of people believe in things they can't explain. That's called faith.

You mean 'a lot of people believe in things that some man told them to believe'! That's called being led astray. When people believe in something that they can't back up with scripture for themselves, they put themselves in jeopardy. That's the example I find in the Bible.

"That is trinitarian doublespeak. Flesh is flesh; spirit is spirit. Babylon = mixture. Hashem is not Babylonish in nature and therefore never at war with His own fleshly nature and desires."

Thanks for the pings. We went to my wife's parents' church for the easter service. The sermon was "CSI: Jerusalem". It was a very slick presentation complete with huge graphics on 2 screens behind the pastor. During the closing prayer there were 4 separate references to Jesus as God. This was not just a bluring of identity. One quote: "Thank you Father for coming down and sacrificing yourself for us...". Nobody else even caught it (or cared), but this was done 4 times. When I asked people about it, it was obvious that most don't think about it much. They understand that God the Father and Jesus are 2 different beings and that Jesus is God's son. None really had an understanding of what the trinity really means. They just know that they believe in the trinity, even if they can't explain it.

John 14:6 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 5:22
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 5:26-27
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

John 10:7-9
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Rom 14:10-12
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Heb 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

2 sticks ping back at ya

Hos 1:10-11
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

LOL, my kids found my old CD and beg to hear it!

"And that graphic... is, is not, is, is not, is, is not

"Reminds me of"

it reminds me of a marketing gimmick, like a logo.