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Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Ro 8:11 But if, the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

I tell you now as God is my witness you must pray the Father with faith believing you will receive and you shall! The only thing standing in your way to receive the gift of God is unbelief and that unbelief is a rejection of Christ.

Father you see those who would speak against your gift and teach others to join them in their covenant with death. I ask that those who would speak against this truth those here desperately need be denied in the name of Jesus Christ.

These "believers" were under the Jewish program.

You are incorrect, these were already under the baptism of Christ.

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

The gift of the Holy Ghost would be a "help" for them to live a sanctified life. I was addressing salvation, not a person's faith walk.

These clearly had the same knowledge of salvation in their time as you do today. The Holy Ghost is far more than some "help" as you say, please remember that it was so important Christ himself had to go away to pray the Father for this gift. Scripture clearly teaches this is your next step in God as you only know the baptism of Christ and not the fulfillment of that baptism which is the actual gift of God, the gift of the Holy Ghost. This gift is to all whom the Lord our God shall call. You are mistaken if you think that this gift is simply something you receive through some ritual or by simply believing you have received something you have not. God does not give gifts that are not verifiable or so insignificant you would not know with the certainty of the Spirit that you have in fact received. I witness to you now you have not. How can I tell you this so that you will reach out to God for His gift which He stands ready to give all that ask him? How can I move you to reach out and receive that which you believe you have already? This is my burden and a heavy one it is. I pray that God will allow me to leave this place and allow me to withdraw in silence my witness finished. There is no joy in telling all here you are in unbelief and I would deny God if I spoke any differently. I will pray for everyone here with all my heart and those prayers will be far more effective than my further witness.

Lord God, bring the knowledge of the gift you have provided for two thousand years to them who ask, believing with faith they shall receive. Part the dark doctrines which hide the truth as the sea for those who are called and bring them to task who teach them.

For non-believers who want to be saved, a person is not saved by "praying for Jesus to come into my heart." That's attempts at Lordship salvation and it doesn't work. According to the Bible, the only prayer God responds to for the unsaved is one of faith that Jesus Christ died on the cross for their sins. The rest is religious mumbo-jumbo.

Then why did the apostles feel it nessessary to pray for these believers in Christ to receive the Holy Ghost? You are sadly mistaken and teach others wrongly. You must pray God to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. This is where most here within this forum are blinded and I will pray as long as I am here that this be corrected if it be God's will. Take care and may you all see this lack and begin seeking God for His gift.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

A) I find it hard to believe that the Holy Spirit would reveal that only to you, and...

How do you know it is only me to? I don't believe I'm the only one who believes this but even if I were it would make little difference.

B) If the revelations were unlawful for man to utter, then why does God INSTRUCT John to tell the to the whole world in the form of the Book of Revelation.

John never reveals what the thunders uttered my friend.

Revelation 10: 3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

John never reveals and we do not know today what those voices related. It is likely that John never revealed to Paul what was spoken hence Paul's "not lawful" statement. Thank you for a good spirited discussion, God bless you and yours.

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 5: 1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 10: 3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Vmatt, if you have speed issues, let me suggest that you turn off the automatic downloading of pictures.

Thank you SD I like the pictures but it gets a little carried away sometimes. If the thread feels it is important to continue with so many I will take your advice.

What do you believe that line means, and to whom does it refer?

This is the most obvious verse pointing to John the revelator and would be a dead giveaway if we would cease repeating the mistakes of past false interpretations of dead and judged men and trust God for the truth for our age.

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Remember, vmatt, we only know this man because of his prodigious efforts to refute the foolish dogmas of Little Johnny Calvin, which have introduced incalculable harm to Gospel of Jesus Christ. I dare say if tomorrow the determinists ceased pushing their vicious little construct, we would not hear from Arminius again. He is merely an effective antidote to a virulent poison afloat in Christianity.

Why not reject these men who have gone to their judgement and begin anew a struggle for our souls in this age? And let the dead bury the dead and let us move forward by doing the first works and trusting in God rather than men? The Spirit led me long ago to reject the writings of men and trust in God to reveal the scriptures and I have never looked back. Tell me where God has worked with men in the last two thousand years? Where is there anything but division, false doctrine, devils and liars? Who built all these churches and walled God out? Man and his carnal mind!

You should be praying for Israel, not mocking them.

Why, because they murdered every prophet God sent them and finally the Messiah himself? And said let his blood be upon us and our children? Israel is no hero.

No, we do not look to the theologians to see how we may be saved, we look to the Scriptures, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved (Acts.16:31) Is that simple enough for you?

Just one question I've been meaning to ask, does the phrase "believe on" rather than "believe in" have any noted significance? Thank you and God bless.

Ok, here they are:

I took the liberty of adding part of the previous chapter for the additional context of Paul's responding to false apostles.

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

Paul begins talking about himself and his suffering in Christ.

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

This is the point of context, that Paul chooses to glory in his infirmities rather than boasting as apparently these false apostles were doing.

31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Here Paul relates one more hardship.

32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:

33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

Now Paul states it is not proper for him to glory and that he believes he will come to visions and revelations, future tense.

2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Paul knew a manalso referring to this man as "such an one" and even relates how many years ago he knew him, not the words of someone who is about to speak of himself. Is it logical that someone who is about to relate something about themselves states how many years in this context?

2Cr 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

Again Paul states he knew a man and adds that he doesn't know if this man was caught up in his body or out of his body, a distinction I propose Paul would know for certain had he been referring to himself.

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2Cr 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

Of this man Paul says he will glory but continuing his point, he in contrast with this other man, will glory instead in his infirmities.

2Cr 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but [now] I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me [to be], or [that] he heareth of me.

2Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Now, as to why I believe Paul is talking about himself, and not John, several reasons. Paul names many names in his epistles, Titus, Timothy, Philemon, Peter, James, etc... if he was talking specifically about John, there's no reason to think he wouldn't have just named him.

Yes there is a possible reason, remember Paul was the one who said "was Paul crucified for you", he warned against honoring mere men above Christ and may have chosen not to name him for this reason.

Second, Paul says that the revelations were so great that HE had to be given a thorn in the flesh to keep from getting a swelled head over them. If the Revelations had been given to John, why would PAUL need to be kept from getting puffed up?

Paul was blinded by light, heard voices from heaven and was taught by Jesus Christ after he rose from the dead, he could have bragged about that but why doesn't he? Why does he decide to glory in his infirmities? No, Paul was not referring to himself my friend, he was speaking of John the revelator.

My recommendation was to lay out the timeline of Dan 9:27 which can in fact accurately be shown to not fit before 70 AD.

Present a timeline and the scriptures to back up why you believe it could not have been.

How is a figure of speech deceptive? If I said to you, "Let me tell you about a guy, 30 years ago, who was not a Christian..." then, at the end of the story, I reveal it was about MYSELF, it's not deceptive, it's just using a particular style of talking. People do that every day.

Please bear with me and post Paul's words in the KJV if you don't mind and show me why you think Paul was talking about himself. As far as those symbols you ask about I have my ideas but do not have the whole truth about the things in Revelation. Additionally, neither of us understand even those symbols in most of the major prophets, agreed?

If you really belive that, you should try to lay out the time frame with dates and events for Dan 9:27 prior to 70 AD.

No one alive today can do that with accuracy. The book of Revelation was written to the seven churches in asia about things which would shortly come to pass to them and they did. Outside of those certainties, I do not pretend to have all the answers. Those of you who claim to have them cannot prove what you say.

2 Cor 12 is regarded to be Paul speaking about HIMSELF.

No, he was not speaking of himself. That would be deceptive and Paul was not deceptive in anything he spoke. Keep in mind what I have said and be careful what you believe, that interpretation has been around a long time and if you carefully read Paul's words you will see, standing alone without anybody elses interpretation he was speaking of someone else and no one else but John had those expereinces.

What I am saying is, there has never been a single, reputable Bible scholar in history that places Revelation BEFORE 65 AD. 65 AD is the earliest case scenario.

Consider the following and who Paul was speaking about. I believe Paul was speaking of John the revelator a full fourteen years after his prophecy.

2 Corinthians 12 1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

Though I think it's 95, let's assume for argument sake that it was 65 AD.

I don't need to tell you what assume means, do I? Forgive me if I seem abrupt, I am struggling with the same devils we all are. The fact of the matter is, barring revelation from God, we do not know when the book of Revelation was written. There is no argument.

Berned is correct in that you have advocated the preterist or historicist viewpoint in which you claim the 'end-times' events prophecied in Daniel, Zechariah, Ezekiel, Joel, Matthew, etc, and Revelation are fulfilled history.

Why do people insist on lebelling one's beliefs by some ist or ism? I have absolutely no persuasion nor denominational affiliation. I made my points about "false prophets", "antichrist's" and "earthquakes" using only the scriptures and would appreciate greatly you showing the same courtesy.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

When you find out what these four symbolic items or shadows of heavenly things are you will then know what the two witnesses are. God bless and keep all.

You ignored my point about "end times" and "false prophets" and simply move on to an earthquake. Here, take your pick of earthquakes. Now think about the possibility that an earthquake can be symbolic just like most of the book of Revelation.

Amos 1:1 The words of Amos, who was among the herdmen of Tekoa, which he saw concerning Israel in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash king of Israel, two years before the earthquake.

Nahum 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Acts 16:26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.