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  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/09/2016 1:20:11 PM PST · 648 of 648
    x to BroJoeK
    Kettell proposed Northerners were, in effect, stealing Southern wealth and Colwell tried to rebut that, right?

    Yes. That is what they were arguing about.

    Googling Kettell & Colwell produces limited data, though it appears both publications are still available, for about $20 each.

    You can view them for free online:

    Southern Wealth and Northern Profits

    Southern Wealth and Northern Profits

    Southern Wealth and Northern Profits

    The Five Cotton States and New York

    The Five Cotton States and New York

    Bottom line is, I'm not inclined to believe that Southern slave-masters were in any way being "ripped off" by Northern shippers & business interests, certainly in no way comparable to the degree of rip-off of slaves themselves!

    I agree. There was less realization of that at the time, but people weren't entirely unaware of what was going on. On top of that, Kettell, a New York City financial journalist drastically undervalued the services that his city and region provided to the cotton planters. Apparently, he was a Democrat and at the time that meant catering to Southern slaveholding interests and telling them what they wanted to hear.

  • 'Highlights' Magazine has Caved to the Left

    12/08/2016 4:59:56 PM PST · 8 of 34
    x to Maudeen
    There are an awful lot of Goofus and Gallant parodies online:

    As I recall, though, Gallant was way too much of a goody-goody.

  • Trump to interview former Ford CEO Alan Mulally for secretary of state

    12/08/2016 4:26:57 PM PST · 82 of 86
    x to SoCal Pubbie
    The "retired Ford manager" provided the quote and attributed it to Jacques Nasser, head of the company (1999-2001).

    It's also been quoted as "I do not like the sea of white faces in the audience." That sounds more likely.

  • Assessing the Obama Legacy—Against His Own Milepost

    12/08/2016 3:20:27 PM PST · 13 of 19
    x to catnipman

    Honey Badger don’t like reading much.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/08/2016 3:18:22 PM PST · 643 of 648
    x to BroJoeK
    If you were running shipping lines between the US and Europe wouldn't it make more sense to ship European products to an East Coast port, and then transship to a Gulf Coast port?

    I can't see getting the goods to New Orleans and then having to backtrack to Eastern ports. Or taking goods from the East Coast to New Orleans to send off across the Atlantic.

    There were perfectly logical reasons why New Orleans or Mobile or Galveston couldn't fully compete with ports on the Atlantic. The population centers were still in the East, so shipping would be heaviest between East Coast ports and Europe.

    Why it was New York that came out on top, rather than Philadelphia, Boston, Baltimore, or Norfolk is another question, but in the 19th century geography stacked the deck against the Gulf ports.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/08/2016 3:10:18 PM PST · 642 of 648
    x to PeaRidge
    I see that you shamelessly quote the line "Slavery is a great institution" out of context. That's not a value judgement, as is revealed by the next sentence:

    It concerns in this country, the interests of four millions of people, who, from the necessity of the case, can have no voice in determining their own condition.

    The sentence refers to the overwhelming significance of slavery to the country. It's a big, domineering thing that's hard to get around or get rid of. He isn't using the word in its more common modern sense: "Slavery -- it's great!"

    Colwell favored protective tariffs. In that sense he opposed "free trade." But he could appreciate that free trade could benefits some areas and industries (and hurt others). So it's not surprising that he might pay tribute to how well the planters had made use of free trade to enrich themselves. That didn't mean that he was in favor of the policy -- he saw that not everyone benefited from free trade -- or that he was disparaging market economies.

    On page 22-23, I do find this:

    The idea now pretty extensively entertained in the South, that New York is fattening on Southern trade and business is an utter delusion: New York is not piling up "Northern profits on Southern wealth." It is a misconception, which no unprejudiced man can entertain, if he will take the trouble to examine.

    That is what Colwell set out to refute and what he largely does refute.

    I might have given the impression that Colwell was more opposed to slavery than he was. Colwell wasn't an abolitionist but he did have serious disagreements with the slaveowner's great friend, Thomas Kettell, about the interpretation of statistics and the policy implications that should be drawn from the numbers.

    Nineteenth century people don't pass our standards of political decency, but that doesn't mean that they didn't have bitter conflicts and arguments about many different matters. Colwell set out to refute Kettell's economic fallacies and certainly does some damage to Kettell's specious argument.

  • ELECTORS SUE TO BE FREED FROM VOTING ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE IN THEIR STATES

    12/08/2016 2:26:05 PM PST · 35 of 134
    x to NYer
    If electors are going to be unbound, we'd see electors campaigning, collecting contributions, and running ads in hopes of getting selected.

    More likely, though, the country would just abolish the electoral college.

    This issue comes up when we talk about the 17th Amendment of the Constitution (direct election of Senators).

    In a democratic age, bodies that aren't directly elected by the people lose power and risk being abolished.

    We might wish it weren't that way, but it is and has been so for some time.

  • Boy, 9, says Santa Claus fat shamed him . . .

    12/08/2016 2:10:12 PM PST · 89 of 89
    x to madprof98

    Oh, the irony!

  • Trump Hasn't Said Much About Homelessness—and That's Making a Lot of People Nervous

    12/08/2016 2:08:39 PM PST · 8 of 121
    x to C19fan

    Were they nervous when Obama wasn’t talking about it?

  • Sorry Beyoncé, Drake, Rihanna - Mozart Had the Best-Selling CD of 2016

    12/08/2016 2:07:44 PM PST · 53 of 81
    x to nwrep

    Beyonce did have one of the best videos of all time, though ...

  • Sorry Beyoncé, Drake, Rihanna - Mozart Had the Best-Selling CD of 2016

    12/08/2016 2:07:06 PM PST · 52 of 81
    x to nwrep

    And how. I believe his song “Leck Mich” went platinum.

  • John Glenn has died

    12/08/2016 1:51:16 PM PST · 180 of 263
    x to sodpoodle

    I’m going to fight the impulse to go with a shower joke now and just say, “Godspeed, John Glenn.”

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/08/2016 1:48:06 PM PST · 639 of 648
    x to PeaRidge; rockrr; BroJoeK
    He was against absolute "free trade" -- not against free markets.

    You ought to know the difference. Hasn't the country been talking about it long enough.

    And no, the slave system didn't take shape "by the free choice of those concerned in it."

    But that doesn't change the basic point that the Deep South states were as dependent on New York (and the North and Britain) as anybody else anywhere was dependent on them.

    Indeed, regions that concentrate on producing raw materials and don't develop industries and leave their financial affairs in the hands of others, are more dependent than those who diversify their economy.

  • And You Thought You Were Sad Now. Get Ready for President de Blasio.

    12/07/2016 5:39:25 PM PST · 13 of 47
    x to GuavaCheesePuff

    No former mayor of New York has won federal elective office since Fernando Wood was elected to Congress in 1862.

  • Media Matters Founder David Brock Vows to Create a ‘Breitbart of the Left’

    12/07/2016 5:26:09 PM PST · 41 of 79
    x to ColdOne
    Air America.....how did that work out for ya?

    It's not the same business plan.

    There are scads of liberal or left-wing websites out there.

    Whatever the reason why left-wing talk radio doesn't work, it hasn't affected their control of other media.

  • How Just 8 Flavors Have Defined American Cuisine

    12/07/2016 4:22:40 PM PST · 369 of 390
    x to nickcarraway
    Well, sure. It's a book about multicultural America written with a focus on food. Or not even about America, but about today's globalist, borderless world.

    She could have chosen butter, cheese, mustard, mayonnaise, cream, chocolate, coffee, peanut butter or some other combination but it wouldn't suit her agenda.

    To each his own, I guess.

  • Allen Mosque Desperate to Find Kind Stranger Who Left Signs of Support

    12/07/2016 4:01:02 PM PST · 2 of 27
    x to nickcarraway
    Okay, "Allen Mosque" ...

    For a minute, I was worried the extraterrestrials had turned out to be Muslim.

  • #Pizzagate, Clinton & Podesta: What is it & is it credible?

    12/07/2016 3:59:08 PM PST · 80 of 81
    x to Golden Eagle
    Or even worse, those ignorant Trump voters who are just riled up right now.

    Over 60 million Americans voted for Trump. Please don't claim all of us are going crazy over this Pizzagate story.

    Like I said, there are perverts and pedophiles in Washington. It would be hard to deny that. But the crazier theories deserve much skepticism.

  • Philadelphia judge won’t let Jill Stein forensically examine voting machines

    12/07/2016 3:55:29 PM PST · 57 of 72
    x to bobsunshine

    I guess it sounded way too kinky for the judge ...

  • #Pizzagate, Clinton & Podesta: What is it & is it credible?

    12/07/2016 3:44:18 PM PST · 77 of 81
    x to Golden Eagle
    This reminds me of Mena.

    Was there a lot of crooked and creepy stuff going on in Arkansas in the 1980s?

    Definitely.

    Were the Clintons running a massive drug smuggling operation?

    Unlikely.

    Are there pedophiles and perverts in Washington?

    Absolutely.

    Are the Clintons heading a secret pedophile or human trafficking operation?

    Not very likely.

    Maybe they aren't even pedophiles, despite all the apparent clues.

    It occurred to me that there may be a code involved, but not a pedophile code.

    Is it really more likely that Susan Sandler would be emailing John Podesta about a semen-stained handkerchief and underaged sex slaves rather than about bribes or illegal campaign contributions or something like that?

    Or it could just be about a handkerchief.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/07/2016 3:35:50 PM PST · 595 of 648
    x to DiogenesLamp; BroJoeK; DoodleDawg
    George Washington improved in his lifetime. Lincoln still wanted to deport them out of the Country just prior to the end of his.

    Washington became more ambivalent about slavery during the Revolution but didn't go further than expressing his doubts in private.

    Lincoln went from accepting slavery to supporting abolition and voting rights for some African-Americans.

    Lincoln supported voluntary colonization by freedmen during the war, but by the end of his life he certainly wasn't seeking to deport African-Americans.

    Why the cheap caricature of Lincoln, anyway?

    I won't say your comic book version of history is unworthy of you, but you might want to aspire to something higher.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/07/2016 3:25:57 PM PST · 594 of 648
    x to PeaRidge; BroJoeK; rockrr
    You are cherry picking: picking out places where Colwell makes an estimate and using that in an effort to discredit his book. Kettell refers estimates and approximations as well.

    Kettell's argument is akin to saying that the American economy is dependent on Saudi Arabia and exploitative -- that American wealth is the illegitimate product of Saudi oil. In fact, dependence cuts both ways. We provide goods and services to Saudi Arabia in exchange for their oil. Dependence is mutual and a country that produces a variety of goods and services are in a better position than the Saudis who have only oil.

    In fact, Kettell was an economist that published reputable journals, books, and magazines. Colwell was a pamphleteer, and not an economist.

    Colwell was a distinguished and respected writer on economics, as well as a successful businessman. Kettell was a journalist and editor -- a pamphleteer, in other words -- who wrote on economics. Neither man had an academic chair.

    I doubt anybody would seriously say that one Kettell, the editorialist and controversialist, was a great economist and Colwell was a hack, though the opposite view might legitimately be argued. It's also worth noting that Kettell went on to write a history of the Civil War that doesn't reflect his earlier view by any means.

    In fact Colwell was a socialist, writing against the free enterprise South.

    Slavery is freedom?

    "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength?"

    You must really loathe free markets to identify them with slavery.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/07/2016 2:32:42 PM PST · 593 of 648
    x to jeffersondem
    I was asking if you thought Lincoln was a white supremacist. If you don’t think he was, just say, “Lincoln was not a white supremacist.”

    Virtually all White Americans -- and Europeans -- were "white supremacists" in the 19th century. But differences between individuals were striking and important.

    The issue was slavery. People who believed that "the White race" should remain on top, could have very different attitudes toward slavery and the rights that Blacks might have.

    It's not wrong to point out that many Britons of the day had a serious blindspot. Like you guys, they may have "opposed" slavery. They might not have "believed" in it. But they hated abolitionists and Americans more than they hated slavery.

    Agree, but there is more. They wanted secure borders. They wanted more allied states in the event of war. They wanted trading partners and a larger economic market. They wanted, as you say, a big country, to produce prosperity and wealth.

    They wanted, in a word: money.

    You start out saying "but there is more" and end up reducing it to a lot less. Concern for secure borders and a peaceful, united continent was a lot more than just desire for money.

    And that’s why northern states wrote slavery into the constitution - until their accountants convinced them they could make more money with a different workforce model (combined with monopolies).

    You show your bias saying "northern states wrote slavery into the Constitution." That was a decision of the entire convention. It was largely done to keep South Carolina and Georgia inside the country, rather than having them outside as rivals and enemies.

    Ten seconds after that, they found that it was morally wrong for economic and political rivals in the southern states to own slaves.

    Over simplified? Yes, but not by much.

    Massively oversimplified. We're a rich country. We oppose a lot of things done in other countries. But it's not just about money. Morality does come into play. Or do you think we only oppose what ISIS is doing now just because we're a rich country?

    Sure, you can't grow cotton in Maine or New Hampshire. If you feel the need to needle some kind of "Northern hypocrisy," fine. That's your problem. Nobody else cares. But it doesn't make slavery right, or secession justified or abolition less of a moral achievement.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/06/2016 5:42:49 PM PST · 566 of 648
    x to jeffersondem
    These states could have prevented the U.S. Constitution from incorporating slavery. There is a reason they didn't. They did not want to.

    They wanted a big country. They didn't want to have a competing country a few miles away. They weren't anti-slavery at the time -- though they were moving in that direction. Nobody denies that all the original states had slavery during the Revolutionary era, but that's not what we were talking about.

    You said: "You might say that in 1861 the Deep South was motivated by a desire to preserve the Constitution." I wouldn't say that, because I recognize that equating slavery with the Constitution is fallacious. Also, it's strange to say that repudiating and rejecting the Constitution is somehow preserving it.

  • Daughter of Top EU Official Raped-Murdered in Germany By Afghan Migrant

    12/06/2016 5:35:01 PM PST · 28 of 43
    x to I want the USA back
    I did a Google search for this. NO mainstream “news” media covered it.

    NY Times and Washington Post picked up a seven sentence snippet from the AP with no names mentioned.

    So, yes, they know the story, but don't want to investigate it or write about it.

    I wouldn't count on the networks featuring it either.

    The British popular press is carrying the story, though.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/06/2016 5:11:57 PM PST · 563 of 648
    x to jeffersondem
    Lincoln was a man of his times who grew up with the ideas common in his time.

    When you look at where his thinking about race started and how far he came, it's quite impressive.

    By the end of his life Lincoln was willing to countenance giving at least some African-Americans the vote -- at a time when Dickens was mocking the idea.

  • Here's why rural Ontario is fading and cities aren't (Out of touch urban elitist in Canada alert)

    12/06/2016 4:44:33 PM PST · 52 of 54
    x to SouthernerFromTheNorth
    Article of the year 1916.

    Agricultural areas have been losing population for a long time.

    Nothing new there and it's not the result of some recent policy change.

  • #Pizzagate, Clinton & Podesta: What is it & is it credible?

    12/06/2016 4:40:59 PM PST · 60 of 81
    x to Golden Eagle
    Maybe not, but according to sources who have reviewed the White House access logs, the owner of Comet Pizza has more visits recorded there than (former) Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi.

    I see that he's been there five times, which they say is five times more than the average pizza guy, but probably not as many times as Pelosi's been there.

    That's something. But the problem I have with this is this: wouldn't pedophiles want to keep a low profile? If you've got three pedophile business on a block and a sex trafficker visiting the White House, either there's an unbelievably massive conspiracy or else these guys were really reckless and begging to be exposed.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/06/2016 4:27:29 PM PST · 558 of 648
    x to DiogenesLamp; BroJoeK; rockrr; DoodleDawg
    But focusing on Slavery in the context of the Civil War is a red herring.

    ...

    Money was the meat of the war. "Slavery" was a side dish.

    ...

    Does Diogenes know anything at all about the arguments of the 1850s?

    Did he sleep through all that when he was in school?

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/06/2016 4:24:07 PM PST · 557 of 648
    x to jeffersondem
    You might say that in 1861 the Deep South was motivated by a desire to preserve the Constitution.

    Only if you were exceptionally stupid or biased or deceptive.

    Racial equality? Is that now the standard for judging people who lived in the 1800s?

    Maybe "racial equality" isn't the right word, but Dickens, who showed great compassion and love of justice in some cases had some real blind spots. He shared an anti-democratic streak with Thomas Carlyle, and that probably surprises a lot of people now who are familiar with his most famous works.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/06/2016 4:19:33 PM PST · 556 of 648
    x to DiogenesLamp
    "Consent of the Governed" pretty much means "Whatever they damned well please."

    Read further: "To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world."

    Jefferson and the Continental Congress recognized that they had to make a case, to prove that they were indeed oppressed and that there was no available avenue of redress for their grievances.

    They weren't saying "FU We do what we like" to Britain or to the rest of the world.

    You can read even further:

    In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

    Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends.

    The Founders recognized that it was necessary to work within established legal processes, but in their day the necessary processes either didn't exist or had broken down. Fighting had already begun. It was different in 1861. Constitutional and democratic processes for the redress of grievances existed but were ignored by the secessionists.

    You should read this book.

    Thomas Prentice Kettell's book was refuted by Stephen Colwell's The Five Cotton States and New York, a pamphlet of 1861. You can find the text on line or look up my many posts here about the two books.

    Early on it says that slavery is necessary because otherwise these people will sit on their @$$e$ and do nothing all day long. It presumes to dictate what is best for people who would prefer to sit on their asses rather than accomplish anything. I.E. Forced Work.

    Like people didn't work hard after slavery was abolished? You are off your meds again and revealing things that hurt your case and your reputation.

  • #Pizzagate, Clinton & Podesta: What is it & is it credible?

    12/06/2016 3:33:17 PM PST · 57 of 81
    x to NetAddicted
    Also in Hillary’s immediate circle is a pizza joint owner named James Alefantis. Alefantis has been named one of the 50 most powerful people in Washington, DC. Let that sink in for a second. This is not some aging former senator who opened a pizza joint as a retirement gig, or a mega-lobbyist who plays restauranteur on the side to fulfill some childhood fantasy. This guy is just the owner of a pizza joint, that’s it. And somehow he has leveraged the position to become one of the most powerful players in a city containing perhaps the highest concentration of influence anywhere on earth.

    That's where you lose me. You can't take those "50 Most Powerful People in Washington" articles in city magazines seriously.

    There are about 43 politicians, political appointees, lobbyists, campaign consultants, and columnists, and they pad out the article with restaurateurs, party planners, baseball players, bookstore owners, weathermen.

    Nobody seriously thinks a weather forecaster or a pitcher for the Washington Nationals or a pizza joint owner is really a power player in the city.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/06/2016 3:18:57 PM PST · 546 of 648
    x to DoodleDawg
    Yes if you want the facts of the matter go directly to a novelist who had last been to the U.S. almost 20 years before.

    Good one.

    Dickens was an interesting case.

    His writing inspired British socialists, but he wasn't any great friend of democracy or racial equality.

    Maybe "but" isn't the right word, since plenty of early socialists had no great love for democracy or racial equality either.

  • Law Professor: 17th Amendment 'Disenfranchised States'

    12/06/2016 3:09:46 PM PST · 21 of 67
    x to george76
    The amendment made it easier for Congress to pass legislation, which eventually led to the massive growth in federal power that the states are still grappling with today...

    Is that really true? Or was it just that people didn't want that much legislation before Wilson and the Roosevelts came along? Cleveland and Harrison didn't want to do much legislation-wise, and voters didn't want Congress to do that much either.

    Twenty years later, voters and the people they elected were in a very different mood. One of the things they wanted was popular election of Senators, but if they hadn't gotten it, wouldn't they have gotten their way through the old system, as they did under the new?

    If the Senate hadn't become popularly elected, another amendment probably would have reduced its powers, since bodies that weren't popularly elected tended to be regarded as not fully legitimate in the 20th century. When we were passing the 17th Amendment, Britain was restricting the powers of their unelected House of Lords. Something similar could have happened here.

    And if we go back to the old way and let state legislators choose their US Senators, the power of the Senate would probably be reduced. Countries that do allow bodies that aren't popularly elected to have a say in legislation usually make it clear that those bodies are second class in comparison to the popularly elected house.

  • How Hillary Clinton Lost Florida (Hint: It Happened On Election Day)

    12/06/2016 2:35:38 PM PST · 2 of 51
    x to Iron Munro
    Almost 75 percent of all of their supervoters — the people classified as voting in three or four of the last four Election Days — had already voted before Election Day.

    How many times can you vote in Florida?

  • Harvard law professor offers legal support to faithless electors

    12/06/2016 2:34:11 PM PST · 8 of 17
    x to SeekAndFind
    Believe it not, Larry was actually a candidate for president for a month or two in 2015.

    He should have stayed in.

    People who wanted to vote for a balding professor from Boston named Larry but couldn't bring themselves to pull the lever for Kotlikoff might have given Lessig their votes.

  • What if 270 Electoral Votes can never be attained again? Vanity

    12/06/2016 2:25:22 PM PST · 34 of 50
    x to Buckeye McFrog
    If you read your history we had a number of elections in the 19th. Century that came to these scenarios.

    Indeed. I learned just the other day that Virginia electors refused to vote for Richard Johnson, Martin Van Buren's vice presidential candidate, because he was living openly with the slave woman who bore him a child. This put Johnson just below the number of electoral votes needed to be elected and the Senate had to decide the race.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/06/2016 1:58:58 PM PST · 535 of 648
    x to DiogenesLamp; BroJoeK
    Your idea that abuses justifying revolution are subjective -- "in the eye of the beholder" -- cuts both ways.

    If members of some group are entitled to declare that they are oppressed and in justifiable revolution against their oppressors just because they feel like it, others are free to argue that from their point of view, members of the first group aren't oppressed and aren't entitled to rebel and may even be oppressors themselves -- and then where are we?

    No. In disputes between people or peoples we can't just discard objective facts and values and argue that whatever one person or group thinks entitles them to whatever they want. Sure, if you live on a desert island you can do as you want, and we have a wide sphere of individual liberty, but if you're part of an ongoing partnership, you can't simply take everything that's not nailed down and skip out on your partners just because you happen to feel like it.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/06/2016 1:51:58 PM PST · 534 of 648
    x to jeffersondem
    You make it sound like the South was fighting for slavery.

    People fight for different reasons. But it is true that the secession movement in the Deep South was motivated by a desire to preserve slavery. One doesn't have to believe that every Confederate soldier -- or even most CSA troops -- fought for that reason, to recognize what drove secession and led to war.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/06/2016 1:40:32 PM PST · 532 of 648
    x to DiogenesLamp
    Neoconfederates say over and over again that slavery was on its way out in the 1860s. The handwriting -- they say -- was on the wall and it was only a matter of time. Was it? Slavery was riding high in the 1850s generating massive profits for your beloved plantation masters.

    It's hard to say what would have happened if Davis and his team had had their way, but the future for systems of bound labor wasn't bleak or questionable. Of course, from our point of view, it's absurd to think that slavery would have lasted into the 20th century, but things didn't look that way at the time.

    In the late 18th century, British courts had already ruled that slaves coming to Britain would become free. Pennsylvania, as I said, had already begun the process of emancipation, as had Massachusetts. It would take much time, but it was possible to view slavery as a relic of the past that would be discarded.

    Virginians were beginning to be discontented with the tobacco plantation system and the state might have outgrown slavery, if the prospects for cotton growing in new lands to the South and West hadn't emerged.

    Later wars for independence in South America brought freedom for the slaves. In retrospect it's surprising that North America, so much more devoted to individual liberty and self-government didn't pave the way in regard to slavery as well.

  • Website Labeled ‘Fake News’ Threatens To Sue WaPo For Defamation

    12/05/2016 3:43:15 PM PST · 40 of 64
    x to Duchess47
    Okay, assuming the flyer is authentic, it's useful to know. And it gives some support to the theory.

    I do wonder, though. Is the logo supposed to be a signal to other pedophiles? A sign of pedophile pride?

    Wouldn't pedophiles want to avoid too much visibility? A street with three pedophile businesses and plenty of pedophiles circulating would attract a lot of police interest, wouldn't it?

  • Website Labeled ‘Fake News’ Threatens To Sue WaPo For Defamation

    12/05/2016 3:29:12 PM PST · 37 of 64
    x to BeauBo
    Here's the current Besta Pizza logo:

    And here's what the conspiracy theorists are saying the logo is:

    If Besta Pizza changed its logo to make it look less like the pedophile symbol it supports the conspiracy theory.

    But if the conspiracy theorists altered the logo to make it look more like their pedophile symbol, it's really bad for the people pushing the theory.

    Which is it?

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/05/2016 3:14:15 PM PST · 472 of 648
    x to DiogenesLamp; BroJoeK
    If slavery delegitimizes the Southern state's right to independence, then it must also delegitimize the original Colonies right to independence.

    Not necessarily. Slavery was a centerpiece -- the cornerstone -- of the CSA, but not of the American revolutionaries of 1776.

    Everyone knew the attitude of the CSA government towards slavery. Things were more ambiguous in the 1770s.

    African-Americans were fighting in the patriot Army. Pennsylvania committed itself to the abolition of slavery in 1780, Massachusetts in 1783 (based on the 1780 state constitution).

    It wasn't clear to everyone in the Revolutionary era that independence would mean the continuation of slavery. It was in the Confederate states in the 1860s.

  • Fury at the man behind illegal artist enclave where up to 33 died in fire: Organizer of

    12/05/2016 2:54:39 PM PST · 84 of 90
    x to ColdOne

    Or maybe Ron Dellums, Mayor of Oakland, 2007-2011.

  • Fury at the man behind illegal artist enclave where up to 33 died in fire: Organizer of

    12/05/2016 2:51:01 PM PST · 83 of 90
    x to ColdOne

    Jerry Brown, Mayor of Oakland 1999-2007?

  • "I was not completely surprised when Trump won" says Rem Koolhaas (World-renowned architect)

    12/05/2016 2:43:08 PM PST · 16 of 18
    x to wgmalabama
    He's a Dutchman. The Dutch think the benefit from the EU. It's a very small country. What would Holland be if it wasn't able to trade freely with its neighbors?

    They're also not that unhappy with EU regulations, so far as I know. Europeans are used to putting up with things like that.

    You disagree with him about the EU. That's because you have different interests and view the question from different angles. It doesn't mean he's stupid.

    From his own point of view, if nationalism meant he was shut out of commissions in Madrid or Copenhagen or Riga, it hurts his income. Other Dutchmen might feel that they benefit from the opportunity to work in those cities as well. Americans and Britons don't feel the same way, but maybe the Dutch know their own interests better than we do.

    But isn't the EU supposed to be imposing restrictions on imports? If they're doing their job, aren't they supposed to be discouraging outsourcing and factory flight?

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/05/2016 2:12:05 PM PST · 468 of 648
    x to DiogenesLamp; rockrr
    My point stands. What constitutes intolerable conditions is completely in the eye of the beholders. It is up to those who are suffering the abuse to decide if it is tolerable or not.

    Your own principle defeats your wretched argument.

    Slaves were suffering abuse.

    Slaves thought your Confederacy was intolerable.

    It was.

  • Race Warriors Decry ‘White Jesus’

    12/05/2016 2:07:54 PM PST · 33 of 36
    x to CodeToad
    Black liberals don’t believe in Jesus anyway.

    They were the ones that voted to take God out of the Democrat Party platform 2008 and 2012.

    I suspect most African-Americans at the convention wanted to keep God in the platform and that they weren't the people who tried to keep Him out.

    I don't have evidence, but neither do you.

    It does stand to reason, though, that Black Democrats are more likely to believe in God than White Democrats.

    Anyway, the Democrats hit on the phrase "God-given potential" and work it into every platform nowadays.

  • 15-year-old charged with decapitating classmate [MA]

    12/05/2016 1:58:28 PM PST · 31 of 91
    x to Borges
    But the police report also said Borges told a witness that he had "done something bad" and that he had "stabbed a kid and cut his head off killing him."

    Borges, you got some 'splainin' to do.

  • US Civil War reading Recommendations?

    12/05/2016 1:55:17 PM PST · 466 of 648
    x to DiogenesLamp; BroJoeK
    Canadian history isn't my strong point, but Ontario ("Upper Canada") didn't get its own government until after the American Revolution. Prior to 1791 it was part of the Quebec, a conquered province.

    I don't think Quebec had its own provincial assembly at the time of the American Revolution, either. French Canadians had been defeated and humiliated and were grateful to be allowed to keep their property, their legal system, and their religion. They weren't going to risk all that and be defeated all over again. Nor were French Catholics and New England Calvinists willing to throw in with each other.

    Nova Scotians wished to remain neutral. There's plenty of speculation about why they didn't join in America's revolution -- geographical isolation, more recent settlement, ethnic make-up, economic underdevelopment, fear of the French, fear of Britain, dislike of Yankees -- but after American privateer raids and British occupation, there wasn't much chance of its joining America's revolution.