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To: Roman_War_Criminal

I’ve always been of the opinion that the theory about soft copper cartridge cases jamming and fatally slowing the soldiers’ rate of fire touches on a deciding factor (the same theory has been posited about the British annihilation at Isandlwana 3 years later, and I think it’s even more likely to have been the deciding factor in that case). The fact that clutches of bodies have been found further out from the main “last stand” area also suggests that something caused cohesion to break down significantly — maybe just the presence of a thousand Indians, but I think more likely something more panic-inducing would the inability to defend yourself with your weapon.


24 posted on 06/25/2022 1:50:11 PM PDT by TheDandyMan
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To: TheDandyMan

There’s some truth to that I think. Some weapons experts will refute that. I personally believe the single shot Springfield’s the Cavalry were issued were horrible for that type of warfare.

There was a battle in Colorado about 8 years before this one called Beecher’s Island. About 50 troops held off over 1,000 Sioux and Cheyenne in that battle and it was mostly because of the repeating rifles those troops were issued. Spencer Carbines had 7 round capacity.

The Army had field trials in 1872 or 1873 and went to the US Springfield single shot rifle .45-70. IMHO, that was a bad move.

Also note that prior to LBH, every single trooper carried his rifle ammo in pouches or sacks. After this battle, the battle belt was standardized or common since most troops fought on foot and couldn’t keep going back to the satchel on the horse.

A real reason they probably got overwhelmed besides numbers was that they lost all of their ammo when the horses were stampeded.


30 posted on 06/25/2022 2:11:19 PM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal (Jesus + Something = Nothing ; Jesus + Nothing = Everything )
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To: TheDandyMan

“I’ve always been of the opinion that the theory about soft copper cartridge cases jamming and fatally slowing the soldiers’ rate of fire touches on a deciding factor...” [TheDandyMan, post 24]

Brass metallurgy had not advanced to the point where deep-draw forming essential to the manufacture of solid-head cartridge cases was possible. Only happened in the late 1870s, pioneered by the British. As you hinted, cartridge cases formed of copper were much more likely to stick in chambers on firing, rendering big-bore centerfire rounds problematic.

Several researchers have cited the high temperatures prevailing during the battle, surmising that the weather increased the likelihood of cartridges sticking in chambers.


60 posted on 06/25/2022 6:57:45 PM PDT by schurmann
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To: TheDandyMan

I’ve heard that. The copper cases didn’t extract properly when the gun got hot. That, and they were formed more like a piece of Damascus steel, not drawn like modern cartridges. I think I remember reading that in Chris Kyle’s book “American Rifle”, or maybe somewhere else.


70 posted on 06/26/2022 4:19:13 AM PDT by Hardastarboard (Don't wish your enemy ill; plan it. )
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