Posted on 02/16/2012 6:19:01 AM PST by SeekAndFind
Time to put on my myth busting cap again. This time, it looks like the USA is turning into Rome. But probably not. This is a comparison we almost always hear from hyperinflationists, those making ridiculous claims about the USA being bankrupt or those who are excessively worried about the influence of the government in the USA. And maybe some of this is justified to a certain degree. After all, it was largely government ineptitude that led to the decline of the Roman Empire.
Before any discussion about the Roman Empire begins, we should put things in perspective. The rise and fall of Rome was a spectacular historical progression. Although the fall of Rome is often described as some sort of event, the truth is that the rise and fall of Rome occurred over the course of 1,000 years with the final 200 years broadly being seen as the period of decline. The USA has only existed for 235 years and has only been a superpower for about 100 of those years. This doesn’t mean we have 765 years left to party, but some perspective is appropriate. The tendency to view the fall of Rome as an event and not a gradual progression is highly misleading.
There are, in my opinion, three major differences between the Roman Empire and the USA. They are:
Manifest Destiny is long gone….
The first point is one of the most important. Any empire that overextends itself is bound to run into any multitude of problems trying to maintain stability outside of their direct sphere of influence. At their peak, the Romans had conquered all of Eastern Europe, much of Western Europe, a large portion of northern Africa and much of the Middle East. This was no small feat back in the days before cars, phones and internet. Coordinating such a vast empire must have been a logistical nightmare. And that’s exactly what it proved to be. Not unlike the British Empire, this proved an impossible task as cultures clashed, coordination become increasingly difficult and authority from Rome diminished on the fringes.
Some people claim that the USA’s large military and policing of the world are somehow comparable to this. But the reality is that we haven’t colonized any part of the world since 1959 when Hawaii became the 50th state. It’s true that the USA went through a period of “manifest destiny” in which we essentially established what is now know as America, but those days are long gone. We’re not in the business of colonizing the world or ruling foreign lands. Yes, we are probably overextended on the military front and I am not sure why we often feel the need to police the world, but this is dramatically different than what the Roman Empire did through directly conquering and establishing their own leadership in other parts of the world and then attempting to maintain direct control over those regions.
Political Stability
The leading cause of the decline in the Roman Empire was political instability. The Roman Empire was actually only one period of Roman prosperity. Rome was many different styles of government over time with the Monarchy and then the Republic leading to its great rise and the Empire leading to its great decline. The Empire led to considerable division within the Empire itself with the leadership, at times, being distributed across many different Emperors. There was no real unification, but rather separate rulers as time went on. The Roman Empire was generally fragmented between East and West and this lack of unification led to instability as time went on.
The United States is in no way comparable to the Empire of disunity or rule by Emperors. We are and have always been a Constitutional Republic. This form of government has proven remarkably stable with time. And while we might see increasing disagreement among the various political parties within the USA, the foundation of our Republic is strong and stable. There is no first or second triumvirate, no Brutus stabbing Caesar in the back, no overthrow of one government for another….There is only a stable progression of leadership chosen by the people and for the people.
Economic Prowess
I know it’s not popular to cite the continuing economic dominance of the USA, but the reality of the matter is that the USA is still the dominant economic power throughout the world. Despite China’s incredible growth, the USA is still the largest economy in the world. Our GDP per capita is almost 6 times China’s. Nominal GDP is 23% of ALL world output. If you combined ALL of the BRIC nations you’d still have an economy smaller than the USA’s. We export more goods and services in the course of a year than the entire nominal GDP of Russia.
Now, clearly, the U.S. economy is in stall speed currently. I am not trying to downplay the obvious rut the economy is in. But let’s not be overly dramatic here. The USA is still comprised of incredibly innovative and productive corporations and a people who seek the very best living standards in the world. And while we might be a bit off track currently, I don’t see the trend in innovation and output collapsing any time soon. I know it’s not popular to be optimistic about the future of this country, but let’s maintain a little perspective here. The obvious direction from being #1 is becoming #2, but that doesn’t mean the American society is going to be overrun by vandals overnight to the point where it becomes a mere shadow of what it once was.
In short, the USA might be on decline (though I don’t really think so). But one thing we’re not is the Roman Empire. The comparisons are apples and oranges.
We may be more like the Roman Republic in the first century BCE.
The problem with the stupid Rome analogies is that they are made by people with precisely zero knowledge of Roman history.
Particularly when it’s the “moral decay” stuff. The Western Roman Empire didn’t collapse until after it went Christian (which Gibbons asserts is one of the main causes of the decline, though obviously that’s highly disputed.) But during Rome’s decline there were many Roman authors blaming it on abandoning the traditional Pagan gods.
RE: We may be more like the Roman Republic in the first century BCE.
Cool, we have a few hundred years left before the sacking takes place :)
But I will say two things:
1) Rome is an example of a great world power that did decline and which did break apart and fall away. This fate could also happen to us.
2) The Classical world of Greece and Rome brought civilization to many places in the world and elevated millions of people. When that Classical world declined and faded, there were long-lasting repercussions. One could argue that the world today is still dealing with the divisions caused by the ends of the Eastern and Western Roman empires.
If America, and the ideals of America, were to fade away, I think it would take a thousand years for humanity to recover from the cultural blow.
Not sure if Gibbons thesis about Christianity bringing down the Roman Empire is correct...
The empire was on the decline well before Christianity was becoming a dominant force. From 235-284, the Roman Empire was engaging in civil war. Contenders for the throne bribed soldiers to become the next emperor. Although, out of 22 emperors, there were only two that didn’t meet with a violent or deadly demise.
At the same time, Sassanid Persians were invading Rome and Valerian was captured and held in captivity until he died. German tribes were flooding into the empire, disrupting boundaries by moving into Greece and Asia minor.
Aurelian tried to restore the empire by building new walls, however war and invasions had already taken their toll on the government. So where were the Christians at this time and what impact were they having? They weren’t present, nor did they have a hand in the invasions and civil war.
Economically, farm production was deteriorating as fields were ravaged by barbarians and by Romes own armies.
The Romans confiscated produce and livestock from farmers, therefore they themselves directly contributed to the failing economy.
Gold coins were disappearing from circulation, while silver was being diluted causing inflation. To put it simply, the economy was being depleted by invasions and social issues, excluding religions that were monotheistic and were hardly having an impact of the fall at the time.
Again, what did Christians have to do with these?
What transpired on 9/11 wasn't just a terrorist attack.
True. The Romans weren’t continually doped up on the hallucinogens of mass media.
Where is this incessant déjà vu coming from?
And why do I see Caligula, Tiberius, Livia, Nero, and Commodus every time I turn on the TV set?
And why do I suddenly understand Roman decadence so clearly? in all its frustration and horror? its incredibility suddenly credible?
And why do the words of William Faulkner (Absalom! Absalon!), Ovid, Gibbon, and Robert Graves keep ringing in my ears?
And why do I have this unsettling feeling that you're whistling in the dark?
Where is this incessant déjà vu coming from?
And why do I see Caligula, Tiberius, Livia, Nero, and Commodus every time I turn on the TV set?
And why do I suddenly understand Roman decadence so clearly? in all its frustration and horror? its incredibility suddenly credible?
And why do the words of William Faulkner (Absalom! Absalon!), Ovid, Gibbon, and Robert Graves keep ringing in my ears?
And why do I have this unsettling feeling that you're whistling in the dark?
And why does the once heroic American electorate resemble the Roman Mob more and more each day?
But not very long before we have an emperor, and we already have proscriptions. It’s called eminent domain. And we may have our Julius Caeser in the White House.
At least. If ever.
One enormous difference between Rome and America is American idealism and The American Dream: liberty, justice, and prosperity for all of the people of the world.
Nothing like The American Dream even entered the minds of Rome.
I knew you were going to say that ...
Right now we’re more like 1933 Germany.
Perversely--Americans who hate the United States, notably the fifth column in the press, Washington, Hollywood, academia, et al., but claim to aspire to universal liberty and justice, and non-Americans who hate the United States and aspire to its destruction, because they consider it an impediment to their ambitions and rising expectations, do so in a misguided and perverse attempt to follow The American Dream.
The great irony is that all of these people would achieve the very objectives to which they claim to aspire if they would embrace the very principles on which the U.S.A. was founded: liberty, justice, and the pursuit of happiness for all people.
These very principles created the greatest, richest, and most just nation the world has ever known. They can do the same for all of the people of the world if they were just wise enough to embrace them.
The difference between the US and Rome is that our Vandals are within, not without. God help us all the day that the gub'mint checks aren't mailed and the EBT cards stop working.
No metaphor is perfect.
A Roman one that applies is the concept of “Bread and Circuses” - rising to power by promising stuff to the public.
Getting a free ride (by not paying tax, etc.) and the promise of unhindered sex is a modern equivalent.
Here’s a quote from the Roman satirist Juvenal, that I pulled from wiki:
“Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses”
I would not stand in front of a toddler with a Popsicle stick to protect Obama, and I hope no one else would either, including someone whose life is worthwhile like a Secret Service agent. Despite my unwillingness to do anything on his behalf, I hope nothing happens to Obama prior to him being voted out of office in disgrace. I want him to live to a ripe old age as a disappointed tyrant wannabe who gets to watch every revolting vestige of his anti-American regime repealed, until the only evidence that he ever occupied our White House is as a footnote in our history books and a more motivated, informed, and vigilant voting public.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.