Posted on 04/24/2024 1:40:51 PM PDT by marcusmaximus
Poland is ready to help Ukraine in getting military-age male citizens to return and help their home country in fighting in the war against Russia, Defence Minister Wladyslaw Kosiniak-Kamysz said on Wednesday.
The Ukrainian government announced rules on Wednesday under which passports for military-age men can be issued only inside the country instead of foreign diplomatic missions.
As a result, men aged between 18 and 59 living abroad will be unable to renew expiring passports or obtain new ones.
Poland has suggested in the past helping Ukraine so that those who are subject to military service go back to their country to fulfill their civic obligation, Kosiniak-Kamysz told Polsat News television.
"I think many Poles are outraged when they see young Ukrainian men in hotels and cafes, and they hear how much effort we have to make to help Ukraine," he said, without giving any details on how Poland will help.
Some 4.3 million Ukrainians are living in European Union countries as of January, 2024, of whom about 860,000 are adult men, the Eurostat database estimates. Poland has granted temporary protection status to 950,000 Ukrainians, the second-largest number after Germany.
"Any support is possible," Kosiniak-Kamysz said about how Poland would respond if Kyiv asked for help in bringing home those who may lose their right to stay in Poland once their passports expire.
(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...
Well, passport expiration plus renouncing citizenship might generate stateless status, and preclude deportation to Ukraine. Note that having a passport expire does not equate to deportation to a war zone. This would go to courts immediately.
Having your passport or visa expire makes one immediately unlawfully present in the foreign nation, and subject to deportation. The United States definitely does not recognize denouncing one's citizenship... Lee Harvey Oswald was an example. I doubt any nation recognizes denunciation especially to avoid military service.
Deportation is to one's country of nationality. If one is abroad evading military service, the country of nationality can declare one a fugitive and seek extradition. Then it becomes a matter of whether the second country desires to keep them or return them. There is no right to stay in a foreign country to evade the draft. A foreign nation may choose to let people stay, but it is not a right.
It is very difficult to rid yourself of nationality. Were Edward Snowden, now a Russian citizen, to return to the United States, or get apprehended outside of Russia, he could find himself back in the States facing criminal charges as an American citizen.
It is effectively impossible to just renounce your citizenship. I can think of no reason why a government would empower a citizen to do that against the will of the government. It certainly will not work with U.S. citizenship.
https://md.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/renounce-citizenship/
Renunciation of Citizenship Application ProcessRenunciation is the most unequivocal way in which a person can manifest an intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. The loss of nationality is a serious and irrevocable act. U.S. citizens considering renouncing or relinquishing their U.S. nationality should carefully review and understand the consequences and ramifications. Please refer to the Department of State’s website for advice about Possible Loss of U.S. Nationality.
Due to the complexity of the renunciation process, please email the Consular Section to schedule an appointment:
ChisinauACS@state.govTo renounce U.S. citizenship, you must voluntarily and with the intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:
• appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer, in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); • sign an oath of renunciation. • pay a $2,350.00 fee.
On the day of your appointment, you will execute the following forms. You are advised to familiarize yourself with these forms prior to your interview.
[snip]
Not sure if that's relevant today, but I wonder.
What we had in Viet Nam, however dubious it was, was SEATO of which the US and Viet Nam were members.
What we had was the SEATO Agreement which does not read exactly like the NATO agreement, and there was a civil war, a U.S. mission to create destabilization, the assassination of a head of state with U.S. support, and a completely bogus Tonkin Gulf Incident used to obtain the congressional authorization for the use of military force and large scale boots-on-the-ground involvement.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/usmu003.asp
Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty (Manila Pact); September 8, 1954
ARTICLE IIIn order more effectively to achieve the objectives of this Treaty, the Parties, separately and jointly, by means of continuous and effective self-help and mutual aid will maintain and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist armed attack and to prevent and counter subversive activities directed from without against their territorial integrity and political stability.
ARTICLE III
The Parties undertake to strengthen their free institutions and to cooperate with one another in the further development of economic measures, including technical assistance, designed both to promote economic progress and social well-being and to further the individual and collective efforts of governments toward these ends.
ARTICLE IV
1. Each Party recognizes that aggression by means of armed attack in the treaty area against any of the Parties or against any State or territory which the Parties by unanimous agreement may hereafter designate, would endanger its own peace and safety, and agrees that it will in that event act to meet the common danger in accordance with its constitutional processes. Measures taken under this paragraph shall be immediately reported to the Security Council of the United Nations.
2. If, in the opinion of any of the Parties, the inviolability or the integrity of the territory or the sovereignty or political independence of any Party in the treaty area or of any other State or territory to which the provisions of paragraph 1 of this Article from time to time apply is threatened in any way other than by armed attack or is affected or threatened by any fact or situation which might endanger the peace of the area, the Parties shall consult immediately in order to agree on the measures which should be taken for the common defense.
3. It is understood that no action on the territory of any State designated by unanimous agreement under paragraph 1 of this Article or on any territory so designated shall be taken except at the invitation or with the consent of the government concerned.
https://www.britannica.com/list/vietnam-war-timeline
Vietnam War Timeline
Written by Michael Ray
Fact-checked by The Editors of Encyclopaedia Brittanica
[excerpt]
May 7, 1954Viet Minh troops under Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap overrun the French base at Dien Bien Phu. The stunning victory by Vietnamese forces brings an end to nearly a century of French colonial rule in Indochina.
June 1, 1954
The Saigon Military Mission, a covert operation to conduct psychological warfare and paramilitary activities in South Vietnam, is launched under the command of U.S. Air Force Col. Edward Lansdale. This marks the beginning of the Vietnam War. Many of the mission’s ongoing efforts are directed at supporting the regime of South Vietnamese Pres. Ngo Dinh Diem.
July 21, 1954
The Geneva Accords effectively divide Vietnam in two at the 17th parallel. Although the Accords explicitly state that the 17th parallel “should not in any way be interpreted as constituting a political or territorial boundary,” it is quickly afforded exactly that status.
November 2, 1963
Ngo Dinh Diem is assassinated by his own generals as part of a coup d’état that is carried out with the tacit support of U.S. officials. Ngo’s autocratic and violent excesses when dealing with South Vietnam’s majority Buddhist population led the U.S. to withdraw its patronage of him. At this point approximately 16,000 U.S. military personnel are in Vietnam, and 200 have been killed.
August 5, 1964
After commanders reported a North Vietnamese torpedo boat attack on the U.S. destroyers Maddox and Turner Joy in the Gulf of Tonkin, U.S. Pres. Lyndon B. Johnson submits the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution to Congress. The resolution authorizes the president to “take all necessary measures to repel any armed attack against the forces of the United States.” Although the captain of the Maddox urged caution, suggesting that the August 4 attack had been conjured from the imaginations of overeager or inexperienced sonar operators (an assessment that will ultimately prove correct), Congress overwhelmingly passes the resolution. Approximately 23,000 U.S. troops are in Vietnam, and roughly 400 have been killed.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Gulf-of-Tonkin-incident
Gulf of Tonkin incident
naval event, Gulf of Tonkin off the coast of Vietnam [1964]
Written by Pat Bauer
Fact-checked by Fact-checked by The Editors of Encyclopaedia Brittanica
[excerpt]
Events of August 4By the night of August 4, the U.S. military had intercepted North Vietnamese communications that led officials to believe that a North Vietnamese attack on its destroyers was being planned. Those communications most likely referred to operations to salvage the torpedo boat that had been damaged in the earlier firefight. That night proved to be a stormy one. The Maddox and Turner Joy moved out to sea, but both reported that they were tracking multiple unidentified vessels approaching their positions. The vessels appeared to be coming from several different directions, and they were impossible to lock onto.
Both ships began firing at what they thought were torpedo boats, and again they sought air support. A plane piloted by Commander James Stockdale joined the action, flying at low altitude to see the enemy ships. Stockdale reported seeing no torpedo boats. Several hours later, Captain John Herrick of the Maddox, after reviewing the events, sent the message, “Review of action makes many reported contacts and torpedoes fired appear doubtful. Freak weather effects on radar and overeager sonarmen may have accounted for many reports. …Suggest complete evaluation before any further action taken.”
It’s probably a non issue. There are no border controls in the EU so if someone is at risk in Germany, he can go elsewhere.
There are no border controls in the EU so if someone is at risk in Germany, he can go elsewhere.
You might want to check the actual status of all the states that have reintroduced border controls, citing Israel, Ukraine, and just lots of migration. And then there is the list of border crossing points.
Member States’ notifications of the temporary reintroduction of border control at internal borders pursuant to Article 25 and 28 et seq. of the Schengen Borders Code
Full historical list of reinstatements of border controls. 34 pp.
Excerpts re recent German reinstatements
384 Germany
12/11/2023 - 11/05/2024
Increase in irregular migration, Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine, the security situation exacerbated by terrorist groups in the Middle East, strain on the asylum reception system, increase in human smuggling; the land border with Austria.386 Germany
16/10/2023 - 25/10/2023
Migratory situation via the Eastern Mediterranean route, the Balkan region and through the Eastern route, increase in human smuggling; land borders with Poland, Czechia and Switzerland.391 Germany
26/10/2023 - 14/11/2023
Migratory situation via the Eastern Mediterranean route, the Balkan region and through the Eastern route, increase in human smuggling; land borders with Poland, Czechia and Switzerland.399 Germany
15/11/2023 - 04/12/2023
High level of migrant smuggling activity, the impact on security and migration in the Schengen area due to the security situation in the Middle East; land borders with Poland, Czechia and Switzerland.410 Germany
05/12/2023 - 15/12/2023
High level of migrant smuggling activity, the impact on security and migration in the Schengen area due to the security situation in the Middle East; land borders with Poland, Czechia and Switzerland.
List of border crossing points after reintroduction of internal border control pursuant to Article 25 and 28 et seq. of the Schengen Borders Code
17 April 2024
[excerpts]
Germany16/03/2024 - 15/06/2024
Borders with Poland, Czechia and Switzerland:
No list of authorised border crossing points has been received. Germany12/11/2023 - 11/05/2024
12/05/2024 - 11/11/2024
Border with Austria:
No list of authorised border crossing points has been received
“Trump and Biden were draft evaders”
Contrary to legend, it was very easy to get a deferment. The truth is the military didn’t have enough billets for the cohorts that became eligible in the mid ‘60s when the boomers came along.
I never said anything about how easy it was, but it was not the same across the board for everyone, everywhere, Trump and Biden both suddenly had temporary medical conditions that their personal doctors identified after their years of student deferments and athleticism ended.
Michael Medved admits that he used the teacher deferment for instance.
The guys who fled the country were scum and I always refused to be in the same social setting with them, if one had sneaked back in and was at the same party as I was I would demand that he be forced to leave.
I went through those lists. Most have expired and were Covid era.
There is no mention of restrictions in Greece or Italy or several other Schengen borders.
And there seems to be no mention of any deportations imposed by EU countries to augment Ukraine troop strength.
It’s a measure taken. It’s a mild measure with rather many routes of evasion. For this to work will require the EU countries to mobilize police in every country going door to door to look at documents/passports of everyone present in each residence. I see little probability of this.
And rather a lot of legal options available to prevent it.
MY comment that Vietnam and RUS/UKR are different because one was under Treaty and the other CLEARLY NOT even if everybody and their brother in and around NATO et al are trying to play like they (UKR) is under Treaty (NOT).
UKR may now be an official aspirant to NATO (I don't know) but NATO's articles wouldn't be operative until UKR is a MEMBER/SIGNATORY of the pact.
I was one in late 60s to mid 70s, eight years with 6 yrs 11 mos OCONUS, half of that all over Europe.
I got drafted during Viet Nam. The only thing that kept me out of the army is that I’d taken some AF tests that were high enough that the AF put a hold on me for grabbing (If I accepted 4 yrs vs 2 years active).
I took it and got a specialty that was virtually all overseas, thus my almost 7 yrs overseas out of 8.
I was inducted in May 68 and stood in line for medicals, etc. right along with draftees. Then at one point they pulled the AF and NAVY inductees apart and had the rest all line up and count off 1 to 4. At the conclusion, the sergeant said, “all you number 4s are now US Marines.” [Atlanta, Ponce De Leon Induction Center May 27, 1968]
“””” Then at one point they pulled the AF and NAVY inductees apart and had the rest all line up and count off 1 to 4.””””
I thought you were going to say that those who could count all the way to 4 they put back in the AF and Navy line.
Thank you for your service and all others who posted here.
No, but you shoulda seen the look on all the number 4’s faces.
I was at the draft board many times, I didn’t believe in the draft at the time and meant it, for me it was prison bound if they tried to draft me, one guy was annoying me so much at the board that I pulled out my draft card and lit it up with my zippo right there.
When I got my permanent deferment I then enlisted in the Army as I had planned all along.
It was a matter of economics for me. Graduated HS, smart enough, but no one would give me a decent job outside of flipping burgers because of my 1A. Telephone company wanted me but just looked at the 1A and said “see you after your done.”
Re: 76 - I had a classmate who enlisted a few months after me. He kept getting warning letters that he had to sign up with Selective Service or he would be subject to loss of College financial aid, possible prosecution, etc.
He finally had enough and went into the Army recruiting station and told them that if those letters didn’t stop, he was pulling the plug however he had to to not report.
LOL! The letters stopped. And he went on to serve 22 years in the Army.
I was always going to join, in my family all the men serve a hitch, during the Vietnam War my older brother enlisted in the Navy, I and my step brother and younger brother all enlisted in the Army during the war, my step dad had been Navy and Marine during Korea and the period, my real dad had enlisted Navy in 1939, all my cousins and uncles served or sometimes were career, mostly Air Force.
I grew up seeing the military as part of the routine activities of males, no big deal, but at the time I didn’t believe in the draft.
“””””And he went on to serve 22 years in the Army.”””””
I came to see the draft differently as I understood the larger world better, I also know that the military has been dealing with reluctant kids forever and that a 19 year old kid is not fully developed, meaning that once he is drafted into the military he changes, grows up, his manhood is unlocked in the manly environment and he almost always becomes a good GI.
Many a draftee went on to become elite and hardcore, even becoming Generals.
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