Posted on 11/14/2006 3:56:55 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
If I am not mistaken, atheists do not believe that God exists, whereas agnostics state that God may exist, but that they simply do not know if God does exists.
Questions:
1.) Where did all the matter in the universe come from?
2.) Was this matter created by a Supreme Being (God)?
3.) If all the matter in the universe was not created by God, then where did it come from?
4.) Has this matter always existed?
5.) or did this matter bring itself into existence?
6.) If this matter has always existed, then why isn't it equally possible that God has always existed?
7.) If this matter brought itself into existence, then why isn't it equally possible that God brought Himself into existnce or brought this matter into existence?
8.) Since it would seem equally possible that a.) God and matter could both have always existed and since it would also seem equally possible that b.) God and matter could have brought themeslves into existence or that God could have brought the matter in the universe into existence, why don't atheists say that a and b are both equally possible?
9.) Based upon the aforementioned that both a and b are equally possible (a 50/50 situation), atheists should rather be agnostics and say that a Supreme Being (God) may exist and that they just don't know if he does.
What say you?
When responding, I ask that all 9 questions be addressed and responded to.
Thank you.
I look forward to the responses.
I will give, say, 24 hours, and then I will respond to what has been posted.
Actually, that should be the position of both sides.
Maybe.
But, if one chooses to take a leap of faith and believe that God exists, then one can.
And atheists can also take a leap of faith and unequivocally believe that God does not exist.
Oops, broke my rule already.
I will return tomorrow. BTW, thanks for responding.
"To those who believe, no explanation is needed.
To those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice."
heh..no problem and don't take it personally but I don't follow rules.
1. I don't know (and neither do you).
2. I don't know (and neither do you).
3. I don't know (and neither do you).
4. I don't know (and neither do you).
5. I don't know (and neither do you).
6.) I don't know (and neither do you). It's also equally possible that the universe was created by a retarded monkey named Darth Pablo (Hallowed be Thy name).
7.) Sure. Darth Pablo brought Himself into existence because He was horny. So It Is Written.
8.) I don't know (and neither do you). You are correct. It is therefore equally possible that the universe was created through some as-of-yet undiscovered process as it was manifested by the fevered wet dreams of a retarded monkey named Darth Pablo (Peace Be Upon Him).
9.) Fine. I will spend Monday, Wednesday and Friday assuming the universe operates according to natural principles (including many we have yet to discover), and Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, I will pray to Darth Pablo, the retarded monkey who lives in the sky. I haven't figured out Sundays I'll drink.
You really should have posted this before Mineral Man wrote his opus.
If you want a better argument in favor of God's existence, it's that God is simply Man writ large and any argument against His being must also prove that Man doesn't exist; we and He are really the same sort of thing.
All the questions come down to understanding what matter is. Space itself is matter. So the question is whether space has a beginning time and the answer is that time is an illusion.
The age of the universe is estimated in the fifteen to twenty billion year range.
What has been going on for the last six million trillion years? And if time and matter have always been around, then six million trillion years is an infinitely tiny fraction of what has gone before.
Isn't it logical to presume that with all that time involved, a being with all the powers of God would by now exist?
The age of the universe is estimated in the fifteen to twenty billion year range.
What has been going on for the last six million trillion years? And if time and matter have always been around, then six million trillion years is an infinitely tiny fraction of what has gone before.
Isn't it logical to presume that with all that time involved, a being with all the powers of God would by now exist?
We do not have a complete understanding of how the Universe was created, nor what happened at the exact moment of the Big Bang, but we know what happened a few nanoseconds after it. All the matter was at that time just super-heated sub-atomic particles of some kind, which coalesced over a long period of time into what we know as matter.
I am not going to answer each question, since most of them are redundant.
Suffice to say, to an Atheist like myself, God is just a made-up fairy story created by mortal beings to help them to justify their existance. Christians believe in some sort of afterlife so they don't have to deal with mortality. And remember, before Judaism, people were believing in all kinds of religions that are far older than Christianity. Why were those religions wrong? The Greeks and Romans were pinnacles of advanced societies, yet their religions consisted of many different gods, goddesses, monsters, etc... Monotheism is a pretty modern thing.
Anyway, a lot of your post is philosophical in nature, and thus cannot really be explained with the science of today. However, we are getting closer all the time, with an answer just around the corner. Those few nanoseconds after the Big Bang are simply unexplainable due to the fact that today's science isn't up to the task of peering into an area where physics is completely turned on its ear.
God couldn't have always existed, since He never existed in the first place.
The Universe couldn't have always existed because we can actutally SEE what was happening very close to the beginning of time. On the flip side of that, we know the Universe exists because we are living in it. We can see/hear/taste/touch/smell the Universe. Matter, for the most part, is observable. God is not. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING except for those first few nanoseconds of the Universe's existance can be explained by science. We no longer need to fill in the gaps with stories of a higher being.
Face it, we are, as a species, out-growing our need for a deity. I don't really know if that is good or bad, but I do see what religion is doing to the planet, and has been doing since the Catholics took over Europe and Islam started converting with the sword.
As a side note, please acknowledge the fact that I am not one of those idiot liberal Atheists that want to tear apart our Christian culture. Whenever I hear stories about Christmas being taken out of something, or someone not being allowed to display Christmas stuff, it REALLY hacks me off. These militant Atheists are anti-American losers who don't know what they are doing to our culture when they do this P.C. crap. Oh, and by the way, I voted to put the 10 Commandments up at our local courthouse. The measure failed...
Matter is energy. The property of mass results from the interaction of one field with the Higgs field. The energy always existed.
"1.) Where did all the matter in the universe come from?"
The energy always existed. The appearence of this universe is can be seen as a kind of phase transformation. Like a bubble of water vapor forming in a pot of boiling water.
"6.) If this matter has always existed, then why isn't it equally possible that God has always existed?"
One can examine the universe, because it presents itself to be seen. Nothing is hidden. If there is a god, he also would present himself for examination.
"Since it would seem equally possible that a.) God and matter could both have always existed and since it would also seem equally possible that"
If something can be observed, it obviously exists. It's the same with a person. If something can't be observed, there is no reason to assume it does.
"b.) God and matter could have brought themeslves into existence"
A person can't bring themselves into existence. That's illogical, where the cause causes itself.
"9.) Based upon the aforementioned that both a and b are equally possible (a 50/50 situation), atheists should rather be agnostics and say that a Supreme Being (God) may exist and that they just don't know if he does.
They are not equally possible, or probable. If something can't be seen, it's extremely improbable that it exists. If what can be observed is self sufficient, i's even more improbable that something claimed, such as the arbitrary force of a spirit, or god is in effect.
There's only one person that ever showed up in history and claimed to be god. An examination of his claims and what he said is all one has regarding the decision of whether his claims are true, or not. The physics are self sufficient, meaning no unseen, outside force is required to provide a complete rational explaination for all that's observed.
The person that claimed to be god was only concerned with the relationship between himself and all the others that were in his image and likeness, and the relationships they had amongst themselves. The claim that he was the first cause for all of what he claimed to have done will forever be buried and hidden in the dual of purely physical cause. He said no physical sign would be found. Matt 12:39
He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah." I believe he caused the phase transition, which resulted in this universe. Only, because of what He said otherwise. This transition itself stands as a possibility of a happening that occured entirely on it's own.
The sign of the prophet Jonah is the Holy Spirit.
It was brought into being by God's creative process. "Through him all things were made." [John 1:3]
2.) Was this matter created by a Supreme Being (God)?
Yes! "In the beginning God created...." [Genesis 1:1]
3.) If all the matter in the universe was not created by God, then where did it come from?
It came from nothing! "For he spoke, and it came to be."[Psalm 33:9]
4.) Has this matter always existed?
No! "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." [Hebrews 11:3]
5.) or did this matter bring itself into existence?
No! "He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him." [John 1:10]
6.) If this matter has always existed, then why isn't it equally possible that God has always existed?
This matter hasn't always existed....but God has! "God is spirit....." [John 4:24]
7.) If this matter brought itself into existence, then why isn't it equally possible that God brought Himself into existence or brought this matter into existence?
It didn't bring itself into existence....God did it. (See answer to #1)
8.) Since it would seem equally possible that a.) God and matter could both have always existed and since it would also seem equally possible that b.) God and matter could have brought themselves into existence or that God could have brought the matter in the universe into existence, why don't atheists say that a and b are both equally possible?
As indicated in my answer to #4 matter hasn't always existed! Matter is physical....God is spirit! Incorrect premise!
9.) Based upon the aforementioned that both a and b are equally possible (a 50/50 situation), atheists should rather be agnostics and say that a Supreme Being (God) may exist and that they just don't know if he does.
For anyone to look upon a "creation" every day of their life and say there is no "Creator".....is the ultimate in stupidity!
The problem most folks have is not understanding things, spiritual. People generally think in physical terms and thus cannot understand a realm which would have no beginning.... or no end. We set our time by the stars and we are constrained by that time. In a spiritual existence....there are no stars.....consequently no time. No time....no beginning......nor end.
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