Posted on 03/17/2007 12:56:25 PM PDT by Streetlamp
When a messenger warned Leonidas, The Spartan King, that the Persian Army under Xerxes was invading Greece to destroy Democratic Greece, and that the Athenians were afraid and badly needed help, Leonidas replied, "What do you expect from a nation of philosophers and boy-lovers?" And, strapping on his war gear, took his men and marched into history. And yes, there is a direct parallel between the modern day Marines and their willingness to die to save Democracy and the clueless Liberal boy lovers it so tragically spawns...
(Excerpt) Read more at logictimes.com ...
I don't think that is what he said. I think he made reference to that fact that even the philosophers and boy-lovers of Athens were defying Xerxes so Sparta had better.
That makes no sense - the Spartans were the boy lovers. Man-boy sexual relations were institutionalized in the form of the Agogi.
"Last Stand of the 300" is being replaid on the History channel tonigh 8:00 Pacific time. Well worth the time to watch, for sure. Uses some of the same Computer grapuic tecniques as the move, maybe even shared, don't know since I haven't seen 300.
Saw both 300 and "Last Stand of the 300" yesterday. Saw the movie at 5:00 p.m., came home in time to catch the History channel presentation. DH, bless his heart, made soup and cheese and crackers to I could see the whole thing.
He had seen both the movie and the History channel presentation while he was in Florida with his son for a hockey tournament. Called me and told me I HAD to see it. He was so thrilled to have a chance to talk to his son about the values and the sacrifices represented by the Spartan's lifestyles and about the American values that the film maker incorporated into the story.
I walked out of the theatre awed. It was very violent, but very beautiful and a powerful way to exress the story and the values represented by the story.
It actually makes a lot of sense given ancient Greek society did not view sexual relations between males as "normal" so no they were not "man-boy" lover and the Agogi had nothing sexual about it. Infact Greek city states would insult one another like this and they wouldn't have felt insulted if such activities were "normal" but we know from ancient Greek sources such as Xenophon, who lived and fought amongst the Spartans and Plato who says "male on male sex is a crime against nature" homosexual/bisexual or sexual pedastry were thought to be unnatural and deviant behavior by the ancient Greeks.
Trust me billybudd, Wiki is the last place I would get my history from if I want to show any credibility. I usually go directly to the original Classical Greek sources that prove what I stated correct and this is what the ancient Greek sources state:
13] The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other. ~Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaemonians 2.13
But the men of Lacedaemon, holding that "if a man but lay his hand upon the body and for lustful purpose, he shall thereby forfeit claim to what is beautiful and noble"--do, in the spirit of their creed, contrive to mould and fashion their "beloved ones" to such height of virtue,[71] that should these find themselves drawn up with foreigners, albeit no longer side by side with their own beloved,[72] conscience will make desertion of their present friends impossible. Self-respect constrains them: since the goddess whom the men of Lacedaemon worship is not "Shamelessness," but "Reverence. ~Xenophon, Symposium (The Banquet) 8.70
Spartan 'love' had nothing to do with shamefulness, if there ever was any such a suspicion since they would have brought shame upon Sparta. The result would be the exile of both of the loss of their lives.. ~Claudius Aelianus 'History' III.12
'Any male Sparta that admires a Lakonian youth, admires him only as we would a very beautiful statue. For bodily pleasures of this type are brought upon them by Hubris and are forbidden..' ~Maximus of Tyre "Declamations' 20.e
'[F]or the man who in his youth was led by shameful indulgence to surrender honorable ambition, that man [say the lawgivers] ought not in later life to be possessed of the privileges of citizenship.' ~Aeschines "Athenian: Scrutiny of Public Men"
Aeschines in his speech also reference the Lacedaemonians in where he speaks about the Spartans where during a one of their assembly events where '[a] man who in despite of nature has shamed against his own body' was voted down by the Spartans and Aeschines used this event to praises the Lacedaemonians ways by quoting an old Athenian saying "kalon d' esti dai tas xenikas mimeisthai" translation: "well to imitate virtue even in a foreigner." ~ Aeschines: Against Timarchus ([180]-[181])
And unlike wiki, I can also post the passages in the original Classical Greek for anyone who is interested. :)
The laws of Aeschynes are an oration in front of a jury and speaks of many of their laws in that oration, including an incident of a "good father" who locked his daughter away because she had sex before she married. As this shows, people breaking the laws was not unheard of but the consequences that followed individuals who broke these laws were severe. Demosthenes tell us these laws were in place during Solon's time, hundreds of years before hand, they were a measure of precaution not an indication of some form of an outburst. Spartans laws dating just as back if not further. To an individual who is not familiar with ancient Greek anthology, s/he will approach these texts with a 21st conception and logic because s/he ignores the language due to restricted translations and non familiarity with the culture, the traditions and the customs of the people in question. So I hear all these posters claiming "its a fact homosexuality was accepted", "its a fact ancient Greeks had sexual relations with boys", "its a fact they 'butt-xxxx' each other", but what the reality is those are not facts because they ignore the significance of laws, plays, historical origins and other literature which prove that such behavior was not the norm based upon the general population. They also ignore the significance what this ancient society as a whole has told us such as of the Laios myth or what take places in plays of Aristophanis, Euripides, Sophokles and Aeschylus which places these negative views well into the Mycenean era, or Aesop's tale of 'Aidos'. Hellenic history can not be understood just from a few translations one might read or a class one takes one semester. There is too much information and it has to be correctly put into context for people to comprehend the events attempted to be discussed. When one understands ancient Greek society as a whole then it very clear from the sources, the laws, the plays, the speeches, tales themselves indicates that these negative views were actually the true cultural norm and the public opinion even centuries prior to Lycurgus or Solon.
The fact that these passages exist indicates that the claim of acceptance of such activity is false. So while such activities might have taken place with a small number of individuals and will continue to take place through out the world and in every society, in ancient Greece it was never considered acceptable nor something that was not preformed without fear of being uncovered and punished harshly.
Oh and Spartans weren't told they couldn't have sex with women until they turned 30, nor did they not have connact with females until then. What they were told was that they couldn't MARRY until they were 30 years old. There were plenty of female camp followers and female captives or female prostitutes around so they didn't go without sex with females. Unless you seriously believe that homosexual activities are also running ramped amongst modern day military too since its an all male enviroment.
The evidence that most ancient Greek sources proves such behavior was not acceptable in ancient Greek society and it scanned view points held in various different time periods through out the ancient Greek world including the Mycenean era and its all based upon what the ancient Greeks view on this was. But certain modern 'scholars' who try to push this myth forward have offered no evidence that pedestry was an acceptable behavior other then their own personal opinions and misinterpretations of historical facts and we are suppose to believe that as "facts"? I don't think so. The evidence that I am going to rely on will be what the ancient Greeks themselves say about the matter and not certain modern 'scholars' with agendas to push and they do have agendas to push. I suggest looking into the Colorado Amendment 2 Case regarding one "Professor Nussbaum" that shows at what extent these individuals would go to alter historical facts to fit their agendas.
Oh and PS: please do not confuse military units where individuals were trained 24/7 for battle and actually did go out and fought others OFTEN with that of a modern day prison system of guys who sit around all day long with nothing to do. Do you seriously believe after the long grueling fight tactics these units endured or that leading up to, during or after battles were men were hurt, injured or died the fore most thing on these mens minds was having sex with each other? You've got to be kidding me. Gee didn't realize that is what our guys in the military are thinking about while their training for war or are in war battles with all their buddies dying around them and guts and blood flying everywhere. ;/
Read a book. Seriously...
Well... there was the Sacred Band. But even in history, they are a bit of an oddity.
The Spartans were forced to mate. When a Spartan was in his late 20s, they would throw him in a dark room with his woman who had her head shaved, to make her appearance more like a man's. Intercourse with women was the *exception* rather than the rule. Viewed more like a duty. *You* read a book, seriously.
Sour grapes...
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