Earliest Reference Describes Christ as 'Magician' [ sez Ogoistais ]

Discovery News ^ | Wednesday, October 1, 2008 | Jennifer Viegas

[BlueStateBlues]

Just look at it, the wood under the letters doesn’t seem exposed to any environment.

[VRWCTexan]

http://www.tonycartledge.com/

It’s also possible, however, that the “o” (which alone would mean “the”) should be read with the following word, so that the inscription may indicate that the bowl was donated by someone named Christ or Chrest, who may have belonged to a postulated religious group called “ogoistais.” It is known that some people of the time worshiped a god named “Osogo” or “Ogoa.”

The evidence at present is not sufficient to answer the question definitively. The inscription may refer to Christ, or it may not. It’s a very interesting find, but unlikely to have any impact on the Christian faith.

[SpinnerWebb]

This is a ceramic bowl, not wooden.

[lunarville]

I believe it translates to; “Warning - The coffee in this cup is so hot it may cause serious burns”

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

J.R.R. Tolkien talked for many years to C.S. Lewis about myth. What stuck in Lewis’ mind, especially as he found himself being pursuaded towards Christianity, was Tolkien’s belief that all myth was “truth breathed through silver” and all myths pointed to Jesus.

In Tolkien’s mind, it was like the world was trying to tell man what the truth was, and man kept putting into stories that he could understand. The myth became reality in Jesus, and that is why we can see so much of him throughout the myths of the world.

[sarasota]

That is lovely; thanks.

[beebuster2000]

o goistas is ancient greek for obama btw.

[aruanan]

dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that, according to an expert epigrapher, could be engraved with the world's first known reference to Christ.

They're off by over a century.

[BenLurkin]

ACTS 8:9-13

But more likely a hoax.

[Philo-Junius]

Acts 5:34-39 is just as likely.

[Claud]

I just finished a 32 page essay called “Pagan Roots of the Christ Myth” which points out that many “christs” from ancient times have had virgin births, were crucified in some fashion and resurrected. And many claim 12.25 as their birth day. Very interesting parallels from many continents.

Yeah, I think that whole angle is pure bunk actually. Here's the thing. All of these pagan gods were born in remote antiquity in a halcyon era far away from historical times. They did not live in the historical period where eyewitnesses could write down what they did and said, like Christ did. And this is not only Christ's followers--He is pretty well attested in the extant secular and Jewish literature of the time period as well.

Plus some of these supposed "borrowings" from paganism are either completely twisted to fit the paradigm or are so generic as to not be all that surprising. Resurrection, for instance.

Also, don't discount the effect Christianity had on the *pagan* religions. People make the assumption that because it's pagan it predated Christianity. Not so. Paganism in different places shifted and changed and gobbled up ideas from other religions including Christianity. So, for instance, the festival of Sol Invictus was held to be on December 25th. But this cult was instituted by the Emperor Elagabalus in the early 3rd century, well after Christianity was already a known presence in Rome. And it was claimed by some within the Roman Church that the date of Dec. 25th had been verified in the census records at Rome. It's quite possible, though we may never be sure, that the Sun-worshippers stole the date from Christians and not the other way around.

Unfortunately, there's been a lot of bad theorizing out there by people who read to debunk instead of read to understand.

[Claud]

I’m under the impression the greek word for magician or sorcerer is “magus”. I have no clue what “goistais” is ...

That's Latin I think.

My Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon has gohs, gohtos, (goes, goetos) "one who howls out enchantments, a sorceror, enchanter". I dunno where that "s" comes from though, unless it is some dialect besides Attic.

[Claud]

They don't have a picture of the second part of the inscription, which is annoying, because the transcription of the first part given in the article, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," seems incorrect.

I see

DIACRHSTOU

DIACHRESTOU

[Justice Department]

Indicherebbe Gesù come praticante di "magia bianca"

"Dia Christou o Goistais", "da Cristo il mago": l'iscrizione, su un vaso ritrovato fra le rovine del Portus Magnus della città egiziana di Alessandria, sarebbe secondo gli archeologi il primo riferimento storico a Gesù, come pubblica il quotidiano spagnolo El Mundo. Secondo uno dei ricercatori, Franck Goddio, l'iscrizione potrebbe infatti riferirsi a Gesù in quanto praticante di "magia bianca", ovvero autore di guarigioni miracolose; tuttavia non è l'unica teoria in gioco riguardante il piccolo vaso, risalente al primo secolo avanti Cristo e che sarebbe stato utilizzato nel corso di riti divinatori: veniva riempito con un sottile strato d'olio, le cui increspature venivano interpretate dal "mago".

Di fatto, spiegano gli archeologi, il nome "Christou" potrebbe indicare sia il celebrante del rito sia colui al quale questi si richiamava per legittimare i suoi presunti poteri.

Le acque del Mediterraneo hanno restituito un antico vaso proveniente dall’Asia Minore e datato I secolo a.C.. Il reperto reca un’iscrizione in greco: “Dia Christou o goistais”.

La scritta risalirebbe a prima del 50 d.C. e secondo gli studiosi potrebbe essere tradotta: “Per Cristo il mago”. L’affascinante ipotesi dell’archeologo francese Franck Goddio è che si tratti del più antico riferimento a Gesù mai ritrovato. «Cristo era considerato il più grande esponente della magia bianca» ha detto Goddio al quotidiano spagnolo «El Mundo».

There. That ought to clear things up.

[Charles Henrickson]

Here's a difficulty in taking it as a reference to Christ: The engraving actually reads, "DIA CHRESTOU" not "DIA CHRISTOU." The first vowel in the main word is an "eta" not a "iota." Therefore that would be, "Through Chrestos" not "Through Christos." "Chrestos" and "Christos" are two different words: "Chrestos" means "good," and could also be a proper name. "Christos" means "Christ" or "Messiah."

Now even in the ancient days there was some confusion between these two close-sounding words. But this inscription is NOT necessarily a reference to Christ.

[Claud]

Good point. Suetonius has “Chrestus” as a Latin transliteration—apparently of Christos—but he may have been confused. It’s harder to imagine a native Greek speaker making that same mistake, unless the sound change in question was dialectal.

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

It’s harder to imagine a native Greek speaker making that same mistake, unless the sound change in question was dialectal.

In those days multilingualism, was very common. Anyone involved in commerce spoke Greek, if the were Roman officials they spoke Latin. Mariners from Alexandria likely spoke Coptic and those based in the port of Caesarea also spoke Aramaic and possibly Hebrew. Those from Damascus also spoke Syriac and those from Lebanon spoke Punic. It would not be uncommon for someone not fluent in a language to inscribe something in that language if it was meant to be read by many others.

[grey_whiskers]

I want to hear the one from Antarctica.

[grey_whiskers]

he is...THE ONE!!

[grey_whiskers]

Shall we bring in MoneyPenney's quip to James Bond that he always was a cunning linguist?

Cheers!