Posted on 08/09/2010 12:46:27 AM PDT by Chet 99
All “Mastiff type dogs” are already on “the list”, not coincidentally because “Mastiff type dogs” are what “pit bull type breeds” originated from.
Welcome to reality.
Enjoy your stay.
[and not that facts matter here *but* “bully breeds” were used for “baiting” sports, the primary victims being, of course, bulls...not people]
http://www.pitbull411.com/history.html
Bull Mastiffs and Pit Bulls are related though. Both are “bully breeds” because they have the Bull Dog in them.
A Bull Mastiff is a Mastiff mixed with a Bull Dog.
The Pit Bull is a Terrier mixed with a Bull Dog.
But of course your point stands. They are certainly on “the list”. And if Pit Bulls were outlawed the same lowlifes who are doing much to ruin the breed and the reputation of the breed would move on to other dogs, perhaps even the Bull Mastiff.
Piffle.
Mastiffs are the genetic antecedents of all the bully breeds.
Mastiffs are also the ancient genetic primogenitors of other breeds such as Rottweilers, Great Danes, Boxers, St Bernards, Bernese Mountain Dogs, etc etc etc.
Once in Rome, the British dogs were crossbred with their Roman counterparts. From the years 50 AD to 410 AD, the breed was widely disseminated throughout the Roman Empire for use as fighting dogs. Along the way they mixed with other indigenous breeds throughout Europe, creating a genetic melting pot for the bulldogs that are thought to have been the immediate antecedents of the American Pit Bull Terrier.”
This is *the* most commonly held and accepted theory on “pit bull” origins.
The Mastiff was the ancient progenitor of what we know as “pit bulls”, today.
Since you *are* aware that *your* breed is in the sights, you should be more sympathetic to the plight of bully breed owners.
When they inevitably outlaw “pit type” dogs successfully, they -will- then train their guns on the *next* breed type on the list until all pet dogs are outlawed.
That IS their far reaching goal.
“Vicious dog attacks” is nothing more than a convenient excuse for the ‘pet dog’ pogrom they so desperately desire.
I own no bully breeds.
I have, however, listened to the sensationalistic, mob-enraging crapaganda spewed about *my* chosen breed, Dobermanns, for 39 years.
I am bright enough and savvy enough to understand their sneaking ways *and* to see this for what it truly is; a spotlight upon a “likely” breed, one that the public is easily turned against and will accept the eradication thereof in preparation for the inexorable march towards an “enslaved pet free Utopia.”.
“And if Pit Bulls were outlawed the same lowlifes who are doing much to ruin the breed and the reputation of the breed would move on to other dogs, perhaps even the Bull Mastiff.”
You’re a day late and a dollar short.
Even here in the backwoods, the town thugs have already turned to Mastiffs.
Amazingly, crossbred Mastiff/pit mixes just aren’t “impressive” enough for them any more and they’ve been going for the bigger guns for years, here and we’re notoriously behind the times.
I’m sure this new “trend” is considerably more common in more metropolitan settings.
Mastiffs are turning up in the local backwoods animal shelters.
-Now- is the time for *you* to join the anti-anti-pit type crusade.
Your breed is already in the bullpen, so to speak and at any moment, could easily become the same marked dogs that pit bulls are, now.
Keep this in mind, though; even though I do not now, nor will I ever own a Mastiff of any type, I -will- fight against their extermination [just as I fight against the wholesale eradiacation of “pit types”] when ~their~ “turn” comes around.
Think about this long and hard.
Your time in the harsh glare of the enraged public spotlight will come soon enough.
Who will be there to fight for your breed if you are not here to fight for another’s breed, now?
And I am on your side as far as the law. What I am warning the pro-Pit Bull crowd against is sounding like a bunch of idiots saying ‘Pit Bulls do not bite humans’ or other such drivel that is contradicted by easily observed reality.
The phenomena I am speaking of, Pit Bull owners downplaying their pets capacity for and tendency towards violence - is almost always a MAJOR factor in these attacks.
An example from my own life. Walking with my brother to meet some friends up the hill to play football. Walking on the opposite side of the street from the house with the Pit Bulls. They are loose and run across the street at us, barking in the middle of the road, and mustering up the courage to attack as a pack - meanwhile the idiot owner and his fleshbag wife are SCREAMING at us “THEY DON'T BITE!”, rather than doing ANYTHING to control their dogs.
I see this all the time. I hear it more often. I hear it here in the “defense” of my simply pointing out that Pit Bulls (like my Bull Mastiff) as an aggressive breed is more likely to be violent, and more CAPABLE of extreme violence; I hear that ‘Pit Bulls don't bite humans’. That attitude leads to rather unfortunate and “unexpected” surprises.
“An example from my own life. Walking with my brother to meet some friends up the hill to play football. Walking on the opposite side of the street from the house with the Pit Bulls. They are loose and run across the street at us, barking in the middle of the road, and mustering up the courage to attack as a pack - meanwhile the idiot owner and his fleshbag wife are SCREAMING at us “THEY DON’T BITE!”, rather than doing ANYTHING to control their dogs.”<<<<<<<<<<
I think that’s a far cry from those of us who responsibly own our pets and don’t let things like that happen (not to mention trying to educate those that think this type of thing is acceptable). Those people will probably end up on the news saying their dogs were so nice, family dogs, responsibly-owned, etc. but you know for a fact that they weren’t. Those dogs that are allowed to behave in such a way are the same ones that are allowed to let things escalate, and eventually “shock” their owners by doing something horrible.
It has far more to do with the owners letting things go than it does the breed. There are plenty of breeds that need firm handling, and plenty that were bred for animal/human aggressive jobs, and I personally do not agree with singling out this breed because it happens to be the most popular thug dog. No, I don’t think you can expect great results treating it like a frou frou insert breed name here, but that can be said for a variety of dogs meant to work. Honestly, the frou frou dogs are getting the raw end of the deal also, with no direction and no leadership. They tend to be much more insecure, nervous, and vicious, simply because they’re flying by the seats of their pants, so to speak.
No one is saying that pit bulls do not bite people. What I was saying before is that they were never BRED for such an act, and a well-bred, well-raised pit bull should not ever bite. I don’t understand why some are willing to say genetics plays a part in their temperament when it comes to the dog fighting “genes” but not when it comes to the not-biting-the-handler “genes”, both of which were important when this breed was being perfected. Just because a dog was bred for this or that doesn’t in itself make that dog bad or good. That is why so many different breeds, with so many different jobs, have bitten, attacked, and mauled people, and why lots and lots of dogs bred for ugly things haven’t done those things. It has everything to do with the owners.
Once again you engage in the “not my dogs!” dodge, and it is indicative of one of the major problems with Pit Bull owners. One problem is when owners train aggression into an already prone to be aggressive dog; but at least they admit what they have. The other problem is people who have a well trained and well tempered dog of an aggressive breed and they think that their dog would “never bite”.
Are you REALLY claiming that there are “bite dog” genes that were amplified in Pit Bulls while the “bite human” genes were selected against? Really? Sorry, but aggression, like most traits, is controlled by a slew of different genes with multiple effects almost all of which were blindly selected for to get the desired aggressive traits. We are working mostly with what nature gave us in the wolf.
Besides your hypothesis lacking any known mechanism, it seems directly contradicted by reality. Or are you engaging in the “true Scotsman” fallacy? If a Pit Bull bites, it was badly trained; so any well trained Pit Bull will never bite. Logically sound! LOL! ;)
“Are you REALLY claiming that there are “bite dog” genes that were amplified in Pit Bulls while the “bite human” genes were selected against? Really? Sorry, but aggression, like most traits, is controlled by a slew of different genes with multiple effects almost all of which were blindly selected for to get the desired aggressive traits. We are working mostly with what nature gave us in the wolf.”<<<<<<<<<<<
I don’t believe it’s exactly like that, but I do believe that the dogs have the ability to distinguish between people and other animals, and I don’t believe genes are going to show this as well as the history does. There were very few human-aggressive pit dogs, as they did a lot of culling when man biters cropped up (not all of them, but many).
If you were to try and stop a fight between other types of dogs, you have a good chance of getting a redirected bite or full on attack. With pit bulls, this was a big concern, which is why they tried (for the most part) to rid the gene pool of any dogs that showed a willingness to bite people. A breaking stick is used to separate the dogs because they do not redirect (or shouldn’t, according to the history) so you can just pry them away from each other, but you really wouldn’t get a chance to do that with other breeds, because they’re so frenzied and scared that they’re fighting whatever touches them. I think this has more to do with fighting intelligence than aggression genes, because it seems that pit bulls display a calm confidence that other dogs lack during a fight, perhaps giving them the ability to make decisions where other dogs simply lash out in fear.
I am not trying to say that certain breeds can’t be more aggressive than others based on their breeding, (but smaller aggressive dogs are a non-issue, and larger “friendly” aggressive dogs often have owners willing to make their own excuses for the behavior) but I do not believe this breed to be in a class of its own when dealing with it, therefore I do not agree that they should be treated differently than other working-type dogs.
Many dogs have been bred for some type of aggression or another, but are not suffering the same reputation, so to say that genes are the reason for attacks is wrong. If the dogs were out of control no matter what people caring for them did, then this would show up as a sharp increase in fatalities parallel to the increase in population we have seen. As it is, that is not the case, and the dogs appear to have replaced slots that would have otherwise been filled by other dogs (they are number one, but other dogs have dropped off, evening the average out year after year). If the average is not rising, save to account for increases in human and canine populations, why are we not looking into the human element? It is the factor that blankets the entire issue, covering all breeds.
Forgot to mention, I do not believe my dogs won’t bite. I do, however, believe that because I am responsible with them, having socialized and trained them, and never letting them even in my backyard untended, I do not believe that it will ever be an issue. I will not let any aggressive behavior escalate into something dangerous. The moment either one of my dogs shows a willingness to bite a human being, it will be a sad day for me, but the last one for them. If more people were willing to look at the dogs as dogs, some of these incidents would not even happen. I am not interested in rehabilitation or any other nonsense. If my dogs are not right, they die, and I go rescue other dogs that won’t bite. But I’m giving them a much better shot at life by doing right by them from the beginning.
‘Pit Bulls do not bite humans’
Frankly, I’ve never seen nor heard anyone on FR claim such a thing.
All dogs bite and sometimes they bite humans.
To claim otherwise is to leap into the abyss of delusion.
All the PB owners I know are responsible people who are well aware of what their dogs [or *any* dogs] are capable of and expend great effort to ensure that *their* dogs never enter the hall of infamy that some of the breed does.
It *is* a fact that bully breeds have a high level of affection and devotion for humans, otherwise the Victorians never would have put them in charge of babysitting their precious children.
What pisses me off -royally- is what cruelties must be inflicted upon these dogs in order to -make- them human aggressive.
It is a sin and a crime to pervert the nature of a beast.
Even law enforcement dog trainers do -not- teach K9s to “kill”; they are taught to STOP and HOLD a suspect.
[I am good friends with a local K9 officer and he has told me of all the evaluations and tests his dog must pass _every year_ in order to remain on the force. -Any- actual bite, unless it was deemed -extreme- circumstances is a penalty for the dog. As little as *one* “unwarranted” bite disqualifies the dog forever]
Any dog used in “pit fighting”, must, by necessity, not be aggressive to the people who will come in and break up the fight.
[although part of me would love it if the fighting dogs ripped apart their soulless “owners” when they stepped into the pit to retrieve them...just desserts and all that]
Solosmoke is right.
The average “pit bull” [whatever that ambivalent and variable term “means”] puppy must be brutally abused and “trained” to become a “good fighter” and I can’t imagine what horrors are done to them in order to reprogram them for human aggression.
We have all seen the massive amount of “equipment” used to ‘rewire them’, by subhuman refuse such as Michael Vicks.
A ‘naturally vicious’ dog would need no such “help”.
As you may or may not know, the Dobermann is the *only* breed of dog ever created solely for the purpose of “neutralizing human threats”.
Of all breeds, then, *they* should be in the papers daily, mauling, maiming and killing their way into legend.
But, they are not.
When they first arrived in America, they were quite sharp dogs and definitely required experienced, savvy handlers.
Within short order, the DPCA was created and an aggressive breeding program began to “soften” the dogs, somewhat.
It was very successful, often to the point of the extreme opposite effect and shyness/fearfulness crept into some of the blood lines.
The function of the _working dog_ was, from fear of public censure, sacrificed for form and fashion, much to the detriment of the health of the breed.
This is slowly being corrected by reintroducing European stock back into the lines.
Yet the dogs remain, on the whole, stable, highly intelligent, deeply devoted and family oriented animals.
Why?
Upbringing.
The days of thugs having Dobes for dope dealing protection are gone, due to the adoption of pit/Mastiff/Rottweiler type dogs.
[”fashion” saved the Dobe breed from further merciless, unwarranted persecution but at the cost of the other now maligned breeds]
What I am trying to say is that we need to look at the “big picture”.
What is being done to pits now was done to Dobes in the past.
I know because I’ve had them for over 36 years and have seen every “Killer Dobermann” exploitation movie ever made and suffered the ignorant remarks of passersby when I and my well trained, highly sociable Dobes passed by.
I have walked many miles in the shoes of Pit owners and it’s NOT a pleasant journey.
There’s nothing more infuriating than to have your -good- dog maligned because of the subhuman gutter trash who allow, and indeed, all too often -encourage- their dogs to be out of control and vicious.
I have nothing but the utmost contempt and loathing for them.
Those who use innocent, ignorant animals to “guard” their illegal activities should just simply be shot as they are neither worthy of their dogs or the oxygen they waste.
Too harsh a judgment?
Perhaps...but too bad.
You mention this:
“meanwhile the idiot owner and his fleshbag wife are SCREAMING at us “THEY DON’T BITE!”, rather than doing ANYTHING to control their dogs.”
In the end, which group is acting more aggressively?
The dumb animals who know no better or their passive/aggressive wastrel “owners” who take no responsibility for their charges and probably “get a kick” out of watching you freak out?
[Can you guess how *I* manage Odin’s natural instinct to protect and preserve his “mom”? Simple. A FENCED yard at home, a strong leash in public and obedience training. How “magical” is *that*?]
If they have children, I can only imagine how *they* will turn out, having parents who are incapable of enforcing the simplest of social rules.
Make no mistake, my dog -will- kill or die to protect me and I am grateful for that in these perilous times, *but*, what swells my heart with -pride- are his ridiculously clownish efforts to win the trust of every child he meets, just so he can get close enough to kiss them silly.
He will, of his own volition, sit, down, give paw, roll over...whatever it takes to make the current object of his bizarre ‘child obsession’ finally give in, get over their fear and come close to him so he can lavish them with love.
Sometimes, I actually choke up when he’s going through his desperately silly “Oh! Please, pleeease love me!” act....especially if the child or the parents prevent him from adoring them.
The disappointment and confusion in his eyes is just heart breaking.
FWIW, exactly -none- of the many Dobes I’ve owned [including the professionally trained “extreme man stopper”] -ever- bit anyone or anything.
They had no need to.
Their presence and their self-confident posture served to change the minds of any weirdos I encountered.
All of them would patiently let kids bounce on them, poke their fingers up their nostrils, step on their toes and yank their ears without complaint, save a resigned sigh or moan.
They’d just get up and move away from the kids, repeatedly, if necessary.
Why?
Because they -knew- they were NOT allowed to do -anything- unless told to.
Where decent, responsible pit owners are now, I have spent many decades.
This is why I fight against breed specific laws.
Getting rid of a breed solves exactly nothing.
Another breed [or victim, shall we say] will simply take its place and we’ll start all over again with ~that~ one.
Barring some rare genetic neurological flaw, NO dog is born bad or vicious.
They can, however, *acquire* those traits later, whether by design, neglect or abuse.
The bottom line is [trite but true] there are no bad dogs but there are a LOT of bad owners.
FWIW, the bite strength of a Dobe is double that of a pit and if two Dobes fight, they will fight to the death so “pit types” have no monopoly on *that* “breed trait”.
The difference is, because of their fast and furious fighting “style” and superior jaw power, it’s over a -lot- quicker so there’s not much “fun” to watch or bet on.
Unless and until the “owners” of uncontrolled dogs of ALL breeds are heavily and summarily -punished- for the deeds their ill-raised dogs commit, children, adults, other pets *and* the dogs themselves will continue to suffer for their sins.
All we can do is hope something good comes from all of their pain and suffering... My personal hope is that these owners, who are ultimately the responsible party in this case, are penalized to the MAX, which won't be enough, I am sure. They should have to endure the horror, fear and pain my nephews are having to experience.... the owners should have to experience the same thing and have to re-live it EVERY day for the rest of their life's!!! I pray that your local communities take a stand against the people who choose to take these animals, or any another other viscous or dangerous breed, in as pets and are not educated enough to do so. Either they ban any breed that falls into the dangerous and vicious category or set such strict laws and requirements in place, which will actually be enforced by the local authorities. - “I AM NOT PIT BASHING OR ANY BREED SPECIFICALLY....SO DON'T TAKE IT AS SO OR EVEN GO THERE”
This viscous attack on my nephews and their mom could have been prevented if these animals would have been SHOT the first or second time they attacked and killed! Why were they allowed to go 6 times without any MAJOR action being taken?
THIS IS ABOUT OWNERS BEING RESPONSIBLE ~ COMMUNITY LEADERS STEPPING UP AND LEARNING THE STATE LAW THEY WORK FOR & ENFORCING IT!!!
If the owner of a dog found to be a dangerous dog:
7 (1) fails to maintain or keep the dog both muzzled
8 and leashed when it is upon a street, sidewalk, or other
9 public place or grounds; and
10 (2) the dog inflicts great bodily harm, permanent
11 disfigurement, or permanent physical disability upon any
12 other person or causes the death of another person; and
13 (3) the attack is unprovoked in a place where the
14 other person is peaceably conducting himself or herself
15 and where that person may lawfully be;
16 the owner is guilty of a Class 4 felony, except that if the
17 owner knowingly failed to maintain or keep the dog both
18 muzzled and leashed, then the owner is guilty of a Class 3
19 felony. The penalty provided in this subsection (c) is in
20 addition to any other criminal or civil sanction provided by law.
Did I mention anywhere that I wanted the posts banned? No. Just wanted a little more open discussion, other than seeing the “kill em’ all” and “all pit bull owners are thugs” discussion. The banning part is false assumption.
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