Posted on 10/20/2018 7:40:49 PM PDT by iowamark
This niggling snipe-hunt is a favorite ploy of demojeff...
For many years I have regarded Buchanan as the worst President ever. It’s hard to top paving the way to the Civil War.
Buchanan also wanted to admit Kansas into the Union under the pro-slave Lecompton Constitution, but Congress didn’t go along - barely.
“But more to your point, saying it was “all about” Southern self-determination”
Who said that? Surely you’re not deliberately misquoting me.
“is like claiming WWII was all about, say, Japanese self-determination.”
A truly ridiculous assertion.
“Indeed, the Japanese threat to the U.S. homeland was orders of magnitude less than Confederates.”
The intent of the Confederacy was to secede: that is, to withdraw from the United States, as was their right. Lincoln refused to allow that, which was the casus belli.
Japan, on the other hand, was engaged in a bloody war of conquest. There is no comparison, and I’m frankly disappointed to see that argument advanced on Free Republic.
“Consider this: “self-determination” also applied to Western Virginia, Eastern Tennessee, Northern Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Maryland, Pennsylvania and several other states which were, ahem, visited by Confederate armies.”
States? Lots of errors in that paragraph. Oklahoma and New Mexico were not states during the civil war. The southern states *voted* to secede. Thus, western Virginia and other regions of those states were not denied participation in democracy: they just lost the vote.
Before you start “ahemming” about Confederate armies, you might reflect that William Tecumseh Sherman would be tried for war crimes and hanged if he did today what he did during Lincoln’s war.
“The south was engaged in self-determinism when they turned their backs on their Constitution and countrymen.”
It was common practice for states to reserve to themselves the right to withdraw from the Constitution. They only ratified the Constitution on that condition.
“What they attempted was to force a unilateral (southern) determinism upon the entire continent.”
Nonsense. If Lincoln had not decided to make war, there would have been no war.
There's only one way out of the union - the same way they got in. And that is by mutual accord. Unilateral secession has never been legal.
dsc: "Who said that?
Surely you’re not deliberately misquoting me."
You posted an HL Menken quote without comment, including:
dsc: "The intent of the Confederacy was to secede: that is, to withdraw from the United States, as was their right.
Lincoln refused to allow that, which was the casus belli.
Japan, on the other hand, was engaged in a bloody war of conquest.
There is no comparison, and I’m frankly disappointed to see that argument advanced on Free Republic."
Noooo. The causus beli was first, the Confederates' attack on Union troops in Union Fort Sumter and second, the Confederate Congress' formal declaration of war against the United States, May 6, 1861.
Further, what you like to call "secede" or "withdraw" is more accurately described as conquest and invasion of such states as Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, West Virginia and even Kansas, plus US territories of Oklahoma, New Mexico & Arizona, not to mention Confederate army invasions or raids into Pennsylvania, Ohio & Indiana.
Can you name for us even one state where a single Japanese soldier (let alone army) invaded, or raided, for even one day?
dsc: "States?
Lots of errors in that paragraph.
Oklahoma and New Mexico were not states during the civil war."
Which means Confederate invasions there had nothing to do with "self-determination", only with a bloody war of military conquest.
dsc: "The southern states *voted* to secede.
Thus, western Virginia and other regions of those states were not denied participation in democracy: they just lost the vote."
West Virginia also voted to secede.
By what law or logic do you hold Virginia's secession valid, but not West Virginia's?
By what logic was it A-OK for Confederates to send forces commanded by RE Lee into seceding West Virginia, but not for the Union to send forces into seceding Virginia?
dsc: "Before you start “ahemming” about Confederate armies, you might reflect that William Tecumseh Sherman would be tried for war crimes and hanged if he did today what he did during Lincoln’s war."
No more so than any number of Confederate generals who invaded Union states.
The burning of Chambersburg, PA, (three times: 1862, 1863 & 1864!) comes to mind, as does the Lawrence, Kansas, Massacre in August 1863).
Remember this: Confederate armies in Union regions always grabbed whatever black freedmen they could for return & sale in Confederate slave markets.
So who, exactly, was guilty of "war crimes"?
Would it be a stretch to say that “nuance” and “spin” are synonymous? J.Effersondem is all about putting a little English on the ball. He has come to be known as a spinning ballerina. I am waiting for the day when he acknowledges that the U.S. Constitution also “enshrined” Free States, i.e., States where blacks were free. Ya know, those States (probably mostly up North) that the Fugitive Slaves ran to.
“There’s only one way out of the union - the same way they got in. And that is by mutual accord. Unilateral secession has never been legal.”
That only became law at Appomattox. Prior to that it was assumed that states entered the Union voluntarily, and could leave at their discretion.
“Seems to me the key issue Menken identified was “self-determination”.
You disagree?”
Mencken was discussing self-determination. He did not say that Lincoln’s war was “all about” that single issue.
“Noooo. The causus beli was first, the Confederates’ attack on Union troops in Union Fort Sumter and second, the Confederate Congress’ formal declaration of war against the United States, May 6, 1861.”
Fake news, fake history. Lincoln committed several acts of war prior to Sumpter, which the intellectually honest reader of history must accept.
“Further, what you like to call “secede” or “withdraw” is more accurately described as conquest and invasion”
Utter horseshit.
“By what law or logic do you hold Virginia’s secession valid, but not West Virginia’s?”
By the same law and logic that leads me to reject “Palestinian” claims. There *was* no West Virginia, no political or legal entity with a right to reject Virginia law, any more than eastern Oklahoma today has standing to set aside Oklahoma law.
“By what logic was it A-OK for Confederates to send forces commanded by RE Lee into seceding West Virginia, but not for the Union to send forces into seceding Virginia?”
Boy, you are really the king of the false moral equivalence, aren’t you? Surely I don’t have to explain this.
“No more so than any number of Confederate generals who invaded Union states.”
Oh, yes, more so. Much more so. All the alleged Confederate atrocities together don’t approach what Sherman did on his march to the sea.
“Remember this: Confederate armies in Union regions always grabbed whatever black freedmen they could for return & sale in Confederate slave markets.”
You know, even though slavery is a moral evil, black slavery in America is not the worst thing that ever happened on the face of the earth. Sherman’s murders of women and children were a worse crime than returning some blacks to slavery.
“So who, exactly, was guilty of “war crimes”?”
Sherman. And, after the fact, those who rewrite history.
No one assumed that - certainly not the Founders.
“No one assumed that - certainly not the Founders.”
They absolutely assumed it. The states would never have joined the union without explicit guarantees.
And yet they did.
“And yet they did.”
I’m sure you wouldn’t deliberately speak out of ignorance.
Go find out. The guarantees are in the original documents.
Then you are just the person to ask: What is another English word for synonym?
“There’s only one way out of the union - the same way they got in. And that is by mutual accord.”
That’s not what Abraham Lincoln said.
Please point out an “explicit guarantee” of unilateral withdrawal from the union.
“Lincoln committed several acts of war prior to Sumter.”
The State of South Carolina committed an act of war against the United States before Lincoln was inaugurated as President. Confederate forces fired on the United States flagged ship Star of the West before Lincoln was sworn in as President.
“Sherman murdered of women and children were worst crimes”.
Cite a verifiable historical source for that statement. Otherwise it is so much “Lost Cause” flatulence.
I’m just devastated by such cleverness. My entire career, for naught. An anonymous keyboardist knows better than I. Might as well end it all.
“I’m just devastated by such cleverness. My entire career, for naught. An anonymous keyboardist knows better than I. Might as well end it all.”
Don’t do it. I didn’t intend to break your will to live.
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