Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Two U.S. Soldiers Die Clearing Explosives in Iraq
Yahoo ^ | 2/8/04

Posted on 02/09/2004 7:21:49 AM PST by areafiftyone

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Two U.S. soldiers were killed and six were wounded Monday while trying to clear explosives in northern Iraq (news - web sites), the U.S. military said.

The explosion, which occurred near the city of Sinjar outside Mosul in northern Iraq, appeared to be an accident, a spokeswoman for the military said.

"They were conducting explosive ordnance disposal when it happened," Sergeant Sonja Whittington said.

Sinjar is about 250 miles north of Bagh


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: army; eod; fallen; fireinthehole; iraq; mosul; sinjar; soldier
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061 next last
To: Eagle Eye
LOL.......I still duck.........trust me it's a good thing !

Hope yer well EE ! Have ya sandbagged yer cot yet ? That's a true sign of smart in your AO !

Stay Safe !

21 posted on 02/09/2004 9:02:13 AM PST by Squantos (Salmon...the other pink meat !)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Squantos
I'm still at it, albeit as a contractor now. 32 years and counting.....tick ....tick....tick.........:o)

You're either totally psycho or very, very careful, or both. ;^)

*sniff* I miss that. Blowing stuff up was fun.

22 posted on 02/09/2004 9:08:08 AM PST by antiRepublicrat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: antiRepublicrat
You're either totally psycho or very, very careful, or both. ;^)........LOL !

Easy Daze !........Stay Safe !

23 posted on 02/09/2004 9:12:18 AM PST by Squantos (Salmon...the other pink meat !)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Arkinsaw
I suspect that in many cases, simply detonating them remotely is not an option. What if the EOD was tied to a bridge support or next to a school or hospital?

However, I agree, is it not possible to place a large container that will vent the energy straight up (such as a large steel pipe) over it and then drop a C4 charge in it?
24 posted on 02/09/2004 9:12:18 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Squantos
Funny thing is that I don't often get many nights in a row in the same place. Actually had two nights in a real bed in a real building about three weeks ago. But no matter where I go sandbags never seem to be in short supply.

I cross a year in a few days. Thanks for all your wisdom and wisecracks!
25 posted on 02/09/2004 9:13:02 AM PST by Eagle Eye ( Saddam-Who's your Bagh-Daddy now?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Eagle Eye
LOL.........Just trying to keep ya smiling EE ! All that heat..... danger and temp wise ....will make ya crazy if you don't take time to grin !

You stay safe and I look forward to a steak and cold cervesa with ya when ya get back to Texas .......my treat of course !!

26 posted on 02/09/2004 9:16:30 AM PST by Squantos (Salmon...the other pink meat !)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Squantos
Could you comment on my question in post #24?
27 posted on 02/09/2004 9:16:33 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
I understand your desire to know why and what for but SOP and render safe procedures are best kept close to the vest in my world. No disrespect ......just my way. Think of it as a business or marketing thang. I tell you and others spread the word and then the concept is countered. I can remember the day that our robotics and procedures was classified to the level that no one was allowed to even "watch" what we did. I'm just old school and won't discuss it . I try my best never to get that detail.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1074417/posts?page=13#13

Stay Safe !
28 posted on 02/09/2004 9:25:25 AM PST by Squantos (Salmon...the other pink meat !)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Blood of Tyrants
I suspect that in many cases, simply detonating them remotely is not an option. What if the EOD was tied to a bridge support or next to a school or hospital?

However, I agree, is it not possible to place a large container that will vent the energy straight up (such as a large steel pipe) over it and then drop a C4 charge in it?


To me, the enemy has two strategies. 1) killed enough troops that the American people want out. 2) make us crack down on ordinary Iraqis so they start hating us

Sending soldiers who are not well trained bomb-disposal experts helps our enemies accomplish goal number one. Force protection in this war is very important to actually winning the war.

IMO, if the bomb is on a bridge then you get bomb disposal EXPERTS in to remove it.

For Iraqi schools, etc. Evacuate them and then blow the bomb up remotely and safely. We can then offer to train locals to guard the school themselves and how to interdict and arrest insurgents who try to bomb schools and such.
29 posted on 02/09/2004 9:42:19 AM PST by Arkinsaw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: RandallFlagg
Originally posted by RandallFlagg:
That reminds me. I showed this video to the guys at work. One of them was shocked and said, "Ya know, that's not something to celebrate. It's the taking of human life. And every life is precious."

Your co-worker was basing his instant opinion on the 'short' version of the video that you referenced. As many are fond of reminding others, Iraq is under occupation and there is a military curfew in place. It appears that these three individuals forgot the reality on the ground, that 'major' combat operations are over, but 'minor' combat operations continue to this day.

Originally posted by RandallFlagg:

"The room told him that we took the lives of "Humans" placing roadside bombs that would kill our troops."
Now I don't think that the three Iraqis were planting roadside bombs, since each one brought his own vehicle to the fatal confab in the middle of a field. What's more, in the 'long' version of the video the three individuals look to be divesting themselves of 'items' in an empty field while looking over their shoulders at night. So, maybe the boys were just out late at night for a smoke and a chance to dump a bag filled with their dirty underwear in a conveniently located plowed field. Maybe not.

Let's go to the videos...

First up, from the ever accurate UK papers:

Apache killing video becomes viral news

A graphic US military video showing the killing of three Iraqi people is being circulated via the web after appearing on US TV news channel ABC News.

The one-minute file, filmed from a US Apache helicopter, shows three suspected Iraqi insurgents being shot with 30mm cannon fire. The clip was cut from a longer video obtained by ABC News last week and verified by a senior US army official.

The MPEG format file has been posted to several right-wing US forums, where the effectiveness of the Apache's firepower has been celebrated.

So far though, in spite of its graphic nature, the film does not seem to have attracted much attention from the anti-war movement.

Tony Sleep, a freelance photographer in the UK, was one recipient of the file. He was emailed a link to a US academic site that temporarily hosted the MPEG file.

"It's very uncomfortable to watch because it's so calculated," he told dotJournalism. "It's quite pornographic actually."

Source: Journalism.co.uk - Apache killing video becomes viral news by Jemima Kiss, 14 January 2004.

Short version: 1min 8sec
Video site #1: Apache Video, 1min 8sec, MPEG

This looks like the version you showed your co-workers. Evidently widely view on the web, but it appears that this UK website story is also based on a viewing of the 1min 8sec length FLIR MPEG video referenced above. While graphic, no 'pornography' was actually apparent. Many have made their judgements based on seeing this 'short' version as did your co-worker.

Now how about the rest of the story from ABC News...

The complete Apache FLIR video was made available by ABC News and was described in the article listed below. This story was based on the 3min 32sec original version of the MPEG file but appears to be available as an AVI file at a few web sites.

Rules of Engagement

Graphic video footage from the gun camera of a U.S. Apache helicopter provides a window into the rules of engagement that often determine life and death in Iraq.

The video, obtained by ABCNEWS, shows grainy images of three Iraqis on the ground handling a long cylindrical object that the helicopter pilots believe is a weapon.

The pilots, from the Army's 4th Infantry Division, ask their commanders for permission to engage, then take the three men out one by one, using the Apache's devastating 30 mm cannons.

Nighttime Scene

The video opens with the helicopter tracking a man in a pickup truck north of Baghdad on Dec. 1, one day after the 4th Infantry Division engaged in the bloodiest battles with Iraqi insurgents since the end of major combat.

The pilots watch as the man pulls over and gets out to talk to another man waiting by a larger truck.

"Uh, big truck over here," one of the pilots is heard saying. "He's having a little powwow."

The pickup driver looks around, then reaches into his vehicle, takes out a tube-shaped object that appears to be about 4 or 5 feet long, and runs away from the road into a field. He drops the object in the field and heads back to the trucks.

"I got a guy running throwing a weapon," one of the pilots says. Retired Gen. Jack Keane, an ABCNEWS consultant who viewed the tape, said the object looked like a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, "or something larger than a rifle."

The pilots check in with their operational commander, who is monitoring the situation. When they tell him they are sure the man was carrying a weapon, he tells them: "Engage. Smoke him."

The pilots wait as a tractor arrives on the scene, near the spot where the pickup driver dropped the object. One of the Iraqis approaches the tractor driver.

Then, within minutes, the Apache pilots open fire with the heavy 30 mm cannon, killing first the Iraqi in the field, then the tractor driver. The pilots then fire at the large truck and wait to see if they hit the last of three men.

Engagement Called Justified

A senior Army official who viewed the tape said the pilots had the legal right to kill the men because they were carrying a weapon. He said there were no ground troops in the area and if the Apache pilots had let the three Iraqis go, the men might have gone on to kill American troops.

Keane agreed. "Those weapons were obviously not being pointed at them in particular, but they [the three Iraqis] are using those weapons in their minds for lethal means and they [the Apache pilots] have a right to interfere with that," he said.

Anthony Cordesman, an ABCNEWS defense consultant who also viewed the tape, said the Apache pilots would have had a much clearer picture of the scene than what was recorded on the videotape. He also said they would have had intelligence about the identity of the men in the vehicles. "They're not getting a sort of blurred picture. They have a combination of intelligence and much better imagery than we can see."

As to whether the Apache pilots could have called in ground troops to apprehend the men, Cordesman said: "In this kind of war, wherever you find organized resistance among the insurgents, you have to act immediately. If you wait to send in ground troops almost invariably your enemy is going to be gone."

Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.

Source: ABCnews.com: January 9th, 2004, "Rules of Engagement" Videotape Shows U.S. Helicopter Crew Firing on Suspected Iraqi Insurgents.

Long Version: 3min 32sec
Video site #1: Apache Video, 3min 32sec, AVI Comcast User Hosted, takes a while to load

If this long version disappears, just use Google to find the 3min 32sec version somewhere, or go to the ABC site for a RealPlayer version...

Target range has been estimated in the video to be around 400-700 meters.

Now that the complete 'long' version is available to compare to the 'short' version, perhaps the commentary might be a little different. The Iraqis appear to realize that they are playing a dangerous game in the dark of the morning...

Commentary:

Contestant #1 (Big Truck driver)
Contestant #2 (Pickup driver)
Contestant #3 (Tractor driver)

Starting the action, Contestant #2 gets out of his pickup, looks around to see if perchance anyone might be looking at him in the middle of a wide-open field after midnight in early December 2003 around frame 574 of the long version of the video.

He looks. Anyone around? Nope. The coast is clear. Contestant #2 reaches into pickup truck cab and retrieves something in frame 835. By frame 885 he begins to run into another field. At around frame 1107 Contestant #2 has thrown the bag/object into the field and begins to run back to the pickup truck.

What could it have been that was thrown away? An embarrassing silver-plated autographed AK-47 from Saddam? Maybe a set of skis and poles that Contestant #2 just out-grew, or more likely he had started the Atkins diet and was getting rid of all those nasty carbs in the form of jars of jam, loaves of bread and packages of dried homegrown dates. Probably was not a canvas bag with an RPG or an SA-7/SA-14/SA-18 inside. No, couldn't be...

Now Contestant #1 duplicates his action and runs to the field and also drops something (Cigarettes? Busted condoms?) in frame 1511 and then returns to the pickup truck and Contestant #2. Contestant #1 runs back out to the field to look again, but returns to the pickup truck.

The AH-64D crew gets permission to eliminate said Iraqis. In frame 3805 Contestant #2 runs towards the recently arrived tractor which is pulling a flatbed. The AH-64D co-pilot/gunner starts to take him out, but Contestant #2 is lucky that the AH-64D laser ranging is off. Contestant #2 arrives at the tractor in frame 4062 not realizing he was a target in the preceding seconds. The AH-64D crew realizes their error and correct. Now Contestant #3 exits the tractor and begins walking towards the other two trucks in frame 4283 while contestant #2 then moves to the left side of the newly arrived tractor.

Contestant #3 is eliminated starting around from 4407 by the AH-64D 30mm M230E1 automatic cannon as he is running towards the other two trucks. Note what appears to be a secondary explosion around frame 4459. What was Contestant #3 carrying?

Now at frame 4494 Contestant #2 realizes that something bad has happened to Contestant #3. He immediately begins to frantically pull on what appears to be a fabric covering to get at something. He 30mm rounds begin arriving at frame 4575 and contestant #2 is eliminated by frame 4627.

Some internet speculation has been floated that Contestant #2 was trying to wave a surrender flag and that the dastardly Americans did him in before he could surrender to something/one he could not see or hear. Amusing in the sense that for such a scenerio to be true, Contestant #2 realizes in his last 2.7 seconds alive after Contestant #3 gets whacked that Contestant #3's tractor has a readily availble nylon flag on the driver's side. Must be that all Iraqi tractors come so equipped. Not at all like the reaction of Contestant #1 who falls to the ground and then scrables off to hide under the larger truck.

Now Contestant #1 makes a mistake and sticks his head out from beneath the large truck in frame 4979 to see what in the world just ruined the evening. Big mistake. The 30mm rounds start arriving at frame 5081 and impact the truck engine compartment and Contestant #1. The AH-64D stops firing by frame 5168, and reacquire Contestant #1 who is sighted rolling out from underneath the large truck to a position infront of the pickup. He might be wounded, or just severely shocked at the impact of the 30mm rounds on his truck. Either way he cannot surrender to a helicopter 400-700 meters away, nor is it in the SOP to do so... Then both Contestant #1 and the pickup truck are eliminated in frames 5677 to 5771 by the incoming 30mm rounds.

Game over. Thank you for playing...




Equipment used:

"The 30mm M230E1 automatic cannon is an area weapon carried on the U.S. Army AH-64D Apache aircraft to provide effective suppressive fire. Firing dual purpose, linkless ammunition at 625 SPM, with a muzzle velocity of 792m/s, it is capable of destroying targets out to 4000 m. This makes the M230E1 a deadly threat to light vehicles and deployed infantry."
AH-64A Apache
AH-64A Apache

Here is a diagram of Apache AH-64D M230E1 mounted weapon system used in the FLIR video:




Apache AH-64D M230E1
Apache AH-64D M230E1



M230E1 Automatic Gun
Closeup of M230E1 Automatic Gun



M230E1 Ammo
Ammunition for above M230E1
Weight: 3.5kg (7.7 lbs) (M789 HEDP)
Length: 199.75mm (7.86 in) (M789 HEDP)



dvwjr

30 posted on 02/09/2004 11:36:55 AM PST by dvwjr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: dvwjr
**Wipes drool after seeing the Apache pics**

Oh, this guy at work is an avid, "No war for oil," type.
31 posted on 02/09/2004 11:54:12 AM PST by RandallFlagg (<a href="http://www.michaelmoore.com" target="_blank">miserable failure)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: areafiftyone
I have only one reply.....

Arrrrggggghhhhhhhh.........

NeverGore ;^)
32 posted on 02/09/2004 12:21:32 PM PST by nevergore (“Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.”)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: RandallFlagg
Oh, this guy at work is an avid, "No war for oil," type.

He walked to work, right? Or rode his bike, right?

33 posted on 02/09/2004 12:24:54 PM PST by Brad’s Gramma (Pray for America and Israel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Brad's Gramma
LOL!! NAA. He just kinda shut his trap after the rest of us said who those, "Humans," were and what they were doing.

Shamed....

Kinda glad he's going to retire this year.
34 posted on 02/09/2004 12:28:06 PM PST by RandallFlagg (<a href="http://www.michaelmoore.com" target="_blank">miserable failure)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: RandallFlagg
He's going to retire, is he? Why don't you gather together all of the conservatives in the office and chip in for a bike for him.

Do it for the chillren.
35 posted on 02/09/2004 12:32:03 PM PST by Brad’s Gramma (Pray for America and Israel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Brad's Gramma

He's an oddball and might take offense. Better just to wave and say good riddance to 'im.
36 posted on 02/09/2004 12:39:12 PM PST by RandallFlagg (<a href="http://www.michaelmoore.com" target="_blank">miserable failure)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: RandallFlagg
The libs seem to take offense easily, don't they? Wonder what that is all about.

And UGLY! Oh my gosh....have you ever seen a montage of pics on FR of libs? They're flat out ugly. I think it's from all that frowning or something.

Well, I'm gonna merrily steal your smileys now, and go forth and clean this messy house. Tell the grump there's a Gramma in CA who wishes him (!!) well.

:-)
37 posted on 02/09/2004 12:43:05 PM PST by Brad’s Gramma (Pray for America and Israel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Brad's Gramma
LOL! Will do!

Here's some more you can have...



And, let's not forget...
SPIDERMAN!!!

Take care, BG!
38 posted on 02/09/2004 12:56:52 PM PST by RandallFlagg (<a href="http://www.michaelmoore.com" target="_blank">miserable failure)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: RandallFlagg

39 posted on 02/09/2004 4:07:15 PM PST by Brad’s Gramma (Pray for America and Israel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: antiRepublicrat
Matter of fact a lot of EOD guys would volunteer for Vietnam when it came time to re-enlist. They did not have to pay income tax on it. In 1972 the re-enlist bonus was in excess of $10,000.00.

I had one of my men get wounded trying to disarm a sachel charge. It had a chemical long delay fuze in it. You are supposed to stick something in the place where the safety pin goes. He just took it out and it exploded in his hand. Scared the hell out of me because I was only about four feet from him. Anyway, he got one piece of metal through his ear and another square between the eyes. It knocked him down and also gave him two black eyes. We went down and re-enlisted him in the hospital the next day and pinned his Purple Heart on him. Then we came back to the unit, declared party time and got drunk.
40 posted on 02/09/2004 5:12:16 PM PST by U S Army EOD (Volunteer for EOD and you will never have to worry about getting wounded.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson