Motassadeq must be retried in Germany [my title]

Spiegel Online ^ | 4 march 2004 | unknown

[An.American.Expatriate]

The trail of Motassadeq must be held again because the appellate courts say that he received an unfair trail (because Binalship didn't testify!!)

Motassadeq was convicted and sentenced to 15 years as an accomplice to the 9/11 attacks and for being a member of a terror group.

For the original german text, follow the link.

[An.American.Expatriate]

This means that Motassadeq will probably be convicted of lesser charges (if at all) and will walk MUCH earlier that the "maximum" of 15 years.

Even now, his attorney's are requesting that he be released until the new trial......

[An.American.Expatriate]

Something for your Ping List

[An.American.Expatriate]

Ping

[sumocide]

because Binalship didn't testify!!

That's WRONG. Binalshib did testify. US authorities gave his testimony to Germany under the condition of exlusice access by Intelligence and Administration officials. The judges never got to see it.

This is unconstitutional in Germany, the government can't sue someone and withhold documents possibly in favour of the accused.

[An.American.Expatriate]

To testify means to appear before the court. Transcripts of his de-briefings by US Intelligence officials can hardly be considered testimony. The fact that they are most likely highly classified is the reason that only select individuals are given access.

AND, even if the sanitized versions of the transcripts were released to the court, the fact that Motassadeq/his attorneys won't have a chance to cross examine would be the next ground for appeal.

So, the only way that he can be convicted is if Binalshib personally appears in German Court to testify. Of course, as soon as he sets foot in Germany, the USA will never see him again. All he would have to do is claim asylum and Germany would refuse to send him back (death penalty BS).

This whole thing stinks. Simply due to an anonymus statement that Binalshib supposedly claimed that noone else knew of the details is sufficient to aquit one terrorist and now, to annul the conviction of another. The chances this guy will walk are quite high as even the prosecution no longer belives they can convict him....

[Michael81Dus]

Again, WRONG. To testify does NOT mean to appear in courtroom. It IS possible under German law to have a video-conference with the "witness". However, I do not think that Binalisbh´s statement would be considered credible, so let´s wait and see. It would be better if the US cooperated with Germany, even in the Mzoudi-trial. In this trial, there was a written statement of B. handed over to the court, which had no hint that the content could be false, so that they acquitted the possible terrorist.

[An.American.Expatriate]

You state that a video conference is acceptable, which IS testimony!!

I stated quite clearly that B has NOT testified to anyone anywhere! He is being / has been debriefed. His statements must still be verified. Allowing such unsubstantiated statements into a court of law is not testimony!

Furthermore, why isn't GERMANY cooperating with the US? It is GERMANY and the EU which refuses to pass on information to the US because of that pesky old death penalty. You'd rather see a terrorist walk, than even consider cooperation.

The US is correct in not allowing a terror suspect to "testify" in open court BEFORE his potetial as a source of information is fully realised.

But the german courts seem perfectly willing to allow an unsubstatiated "note" which claims that Mr. X didn't know is sufficient to allow a terrorist to walk.

[Michael81Dus]

But the german courts seem perfectly willing to allow an unsubstatiated "note" which claims that Mr. X didn't know is sufficient to allow a terrorist to walk.

Sure, since the judges have no chance to raise concerns on the credibility of the "witness" - because the US refuse to allow a testimony (maybe you didn´t get it by now, but your argument "asylum" etc is void because of a possible video conference from his cell in the US). Ever heard of the principle that there´s no sentence unless the court is fully convinced of the guilt? How can the judges be convinced of their guilt when there´s a signed paper, saying that the suspects are not guilty - and there´s no chance to ask this witness directly!?

Sorry pal, but Germany will not extradite both terror suspects, because they allegedly violated our laws, on our soil.

"You can´t always get what you wa-aant..."

:-)

[An.American.Expatriate]

That Germany allows video testimony is new to me and does indeed invalidate that asylum problem.

BUT, according to the logic of the court, if one terrorist says "he wasn't involved", this is sufficient grounds to throw out the case?

Supposedly, there was sufficient evidence to convict - even the BGH admitted this. It is simply a single note which claims that Motassadeq was unaware of the targets of the attack which cause the court to annul the conviction and demand a new trial?

Sound's like a great way to get your pals off the hook! Write a note to the court claiming full responsibility (for which you can't be tried by said court) and you co-conspirator's are released! Cool Justice.

[Michael81Dus]

No, it´s that the courts have to consider ALL circumstances and check all possible witnesses, proofs, etc in order to give the charged person full justice. Because sheets of paper cannot speak, the judges have no possibility to doubt the content, they need to talk to Binalsibh, so that they can they "ah, ok, this guy is not trustworthy, he wants to protect his accomplices". The paper doesn´t tell you the whole story - but that´s exactly what the court needs to hear, because it´s the right of every suspect to bring in - and get - possible evidence of his innocence. Alright?

[americanbychoice2]

If Binalisbh's testimony was considered "Not credible", why would they have vacated the conviction?
If Video tape was allowed, why didn't the court request such a tape?
US cooperating with Germany? Isn't this the other way around, don't you have and hold the terrorist?
Well, wair a few years, ther will be changes...... Sharia law is not quite as tolerable as the liberal German law is.

[An.American.Expatriate]

If Binalshib had written this note and died - how would the court treat it?

But you unintentionally back up what I claim, an unsubstiated note "anonymously" given to the court is more than sufficient grounds to entirely disregard all other evidence to the contrary!

BTW, the note supposedly only claims that Motasadeq was unaware of the targets, not that he was unaware that he was aiding and abetting a terrorist plot. But I guess such lack of knowledge is also somehow a sign of lesser guilt / innocence.

[Michael81Dus]

If Binalisbh's testimony was considered "Not credible", why would they have vacated the conviction? If Video tape was allowed, why didn't the court request such a tape?

Hello-o?? Which case are you talking about?

A. Mzoudi: there was no testimony, the prosecutors wanted it, but the US said no. The written statement of Binsalibh is a doubt for the guilt of Motassadeq, so the court could not be sure that he was guilty. The prosecutors appealed the acquittal.

B. Motassadeq: When the trial was held, there wasn´t even a written statement of Binalsibh known, but now it´s known, the court has to find all possible evidences which could lead to the proof of guilt or innocence of him.

[Michael81Dus]

But I guess such lack of knowledge is also somehow a sign of lesser guilt / innocence.

Correct, at least it must be considered during the deliberations about the judgment.

If Binalshib had written this note and died - how would the court treat it?

This is a hypothetical question. The judges probably would request all documents about Binsalibhs participation in the attacks on 9-11-01 and try to conclude wether his statement could be trustworthy or not.

[pepsionice]

One interesting thing occurred at the end of the first trial...the judge basically told Motassadeq that he did not walk away with "clean hands". The judge did not come out and say that he was a murderer or anything...that would have stepped over the legal bounds of the judge and behavior that is acceptable in a German court...but the judge let him know in very strong language that a second case in court, handled in a different fashion, would surely end in a guilty verdict. There wasn't alot of comments in the German media about the judge and his comments...most showed Motassadeq smiling and happily walking out of the court. But one would get the impression that Motassadeq is going to meet German justice again, and this time the verdict will be different. I would also think that our Muslim friend will find some outstanding individuals in the German prison system who care very little for Muslims. The cops will have to keep this guy in a very guarded area. Motassadeq will spend at least five years in prison by my guess.

The tide in Germany is starting to turn the other direction on Muslim radicals in the country. Once the CDU recovers its leadership position, I can see the BND actively watching all Muslim radicals, and picking them up for visa violations very quickly. This is a problem that should not exist, and the German public is tiring of the special treatment these characters are getting.

[Michael81Dus]

Oh, I pretty much agree, just a few notes:
The domestic intelligence is already watching our Islamic Bin-Laden-Fan-Clubs, I´m glad that Interior Minister Schily, also a former terrorist defense attorney, is actively fighting the enemies of our society. He´s also cooperating with the US on all security issues - just think of Sky Marshals or biometric passports.

If the sentence will be confirmed, Motassadeq will be at least 10 years in jail - it´s only possible to get released after 2/3 of the sentence, because of good behaviour in jail.

It was Mzoudi walking out of courtroom as a free man, and not Motassadeq, who´s still in prison. The judges were annoyed that they were not fully informed by the intelligences, and under law, they have a right to be fully informed. I can understand that they´re pi§$ed. :)