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To: neutrino
The issue is not the individual US worker; rather, it is the negative effect of such policy on maintaining America's technological lead.

Why should anyone to technical degree, given the situation discussed here? Long-term, that's a problem


We need a different focus to our Science and Engineering education, and more innovative thinking. We need fewer courses in Women's Sudies, Minority Culture, and Art History. People feel pressured to get a degree, any degree in anything, whether it will create new industries and businesses or not. From what I have seen (14 nieces and nephews) even mediocre colleges know how to turn out lab drudges, but independent, innovative thought seems to be a lost art. For proof, look at any current NASA Tech Briefs, then look at a few from 15 years ago. Current "research" shows a trend towards being uninspired and derivative, e.g."This was always made with calcium, but we used a magnesium compound" and other intuitively obvious efforts.

There is too much buzzword jingoism: "Nanophase", Hydrogen energy", "MEMS", with many unworkable and some outright stupid publications that would not have survived a peer review 15 years ago.

If the situation is not addressed (And at present there is no motivation for the education industry to do so), expect further declines.

Excuse this rant from an old R&D whore..haha.

16 posted on 06/27/2004 5:49:03 AM PDT by Gorzaloon (Contents may have settled during shipping, but this tagline contains the stated product weight.)
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To: Gorzaloon

Hey, it's a quality rant.

There's still innovative folks out there, but lots of the "worker bees" in the technical and scientific fields are not. One theory I have is that much of this homogenization of design comes from commonality of software (all designs start to look the same) and the manipulation of such. Formerly "back of the envelope" problem solving is done by pre-canned macro. I've found having to use serious brain time on a deadline wonderful for increasing one's innovative abilities (sort of like the old saying "the realization of being hung a dawn focuses one's attention.)


18 posted on 06/27/2004 6:03:03 AM PDT by Tijeras_Slim (John Kerry - Not the Swiftest Boat in the Delta.)
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To: Gorzaloon
We need a different focus to our Science and Engineering education, and more innovative thinking. We need fewer courses in Women's Sudies, Minority Culture, and Art History.

Engineering students don't take women's studies or art history classes. Perhaps if they *did* take some history or economics, they'd understand what hit them, rather than sounding so blindsided.

There's nothing wrong with the educational system when it comes to preparing students to go to engineering school. To get into a good engineering college program & do well in it, the student has to start in 7th grade (making sure to take algebra in middle school, so he can get his calculus in before being graduated from high school.)

Few students *want* to study engineering because it involves hard work. It's not up to the school system to instill a work ethic in people; that comes way before someone shows up for kindergarten. Further, there's no reason, as they see it today, to work that hard, if there are only jobs to be had in India & China.

96 posted on 06/27/2004 12:22:12 PM PDT by valkyrieanne
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To: Gorzaloon
From what I have seen (14 nieces and nephews) even mediocre colleges know how to turn out lab drudges, but independent, innovative thought seems to be a lost art

I beg your pardon? ;-)

No, in the long and short of it, we need to take the "liberal" out of liberal arts education. Then we're home free. I have to take a course titled "Gender and Inequality" The very title makes me feel dirty. I don't think that I'm going to like being brainwashed... "Women good! Men bad! *Grunt* *grunt*"
I had a friend tell me that I needed to get a degree in something.. ANYTHING in order to make it. But, if it's not a degree that I WANT, why spend all the money getting it in the first place? I should just up and quit if it came down to that.
143 posted on 06/27/2004 6:38:40 PM PDT by Beaker (Tag line? What tag line? I don't see a tag line.)
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To: Gorzaloon

And you forgot too many project managers and not enough workers. Guy gets laid off because he's over qualified and uses his money to get a job to make him a disposable middle man. Companies want people who can do things that make them money.

Hint. Hint.


144 posted on 06/27/2004 6:59:19 PM PDT by Joe_October (Saddam supported Terrorists. Al Qaeda are Terrorists. I can't find the link.)
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To: Gorzaloon
Valid points. But the education industry can't teach the critical thinking skills necessary to do effective R&D and still squeeze out the social propaganda they do in current K-12 curricula.

Teach 'germ theory' and suddenly no one wants to be around anyone who is at high risk for AIDS..Teach someone how to analyze data and the nonsense numbers on the nightly news are shown as being as meaningless and/or deceptive as they are. The whole 'global warming' furor would cool off quickly.

The education industry is not willing to give (or, in some cases, capable of giving) students the skills necessary to critically assess and debunk their own pet truisms.

Until we get past the social agendae driving the education industry, we will continue to fall further behind other countries where people manufacture pins instead of debating the number of angels who can dance on the head thereof, or write rules limiting the angelic capacity for safety purposes.

177 posted on 06/28/2004 5:30:52 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (Nothin' up my sleevies but my armies....)
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