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ACT: The Future (adovates "sink or swim" for NZ Maori - applies to US minorities as well)
www.rogerdouglas.org.nz ^ | 6 March 2004 | Hon Sir Roger Douglas

Posted on 07/09/2004 5:05:53 PM PDT by NZerFromHK

Delivered at the ACT New Zealand 10th Annual Conference Christchurch 6 March 2004

Don Brash has put the cat firmly in the middle of the political pigeons.

How should ACT respond?

Firstly by acknowledging that Brash was right in what he said. We have to ask ourselves why this one speech overshadowed 7 years of similar statements by ACT; why it reduced Peters from being a threat to National to being a non-entity.

Answer - voters believed Brash meant what he said. That comes from having a consistent message which leads to credibility and ultimately confidence.

Richard, in difficult circumstances, ran ACT's best campaign at the last election. Unfortunately, the policies run during the election have subsequently been overshadowed by irrelevant side issues.

Secondly, by reminding Brash and the public that in the main the Brash speech while dealing with some important issues of principle was not about solutions to the issues facing New Zealand today.

This is what I had to say 8 years ago in my book 'Completing the Circle':

"One fundamental problem I see is one of public apathy, of defeatism, of believing that our problems are so big that we can't do anything about them.

The same sort of things are happening all over the world - gangs in Los Angeles, endemic poverty in a deteriorating Britain, violence and an unravelling society everywhere - and we think this is inevitable. I don't believe it is.

I've talked to a lot of people about what they feel is going on in New Zealand. There is an extraordinary agreement about what is right and what is wrong. I've seen what happens in focus groups that research New Zealanders' attitudes.

The interesting thing is that for the first twenty minutes, research groups of every persuasion - left and right, young and old - all talk about Maori and nothing but Maori.

Even more interestingly, they don't use the word 'Maori'. They use words like 'youth', 'crime', 'unemployment', 'drug abuse', 'violence'. In the context of these polite research groups these are the code words used for Maori. These problems affecting Maori are worrying New Zealanders deeply. The relationship we have between our two races is fundamental to our national identity; it is part of what makes us New Zealanders.

I remember a touching piece in a magazine written by a man remembering his nervousness at his first day at his first school. But then a little Maori boy came up to him and put his arm around his neck and said, "You're my mate". And so they were all through primary school. That's what our relationship should be. It's a part of our heritage and part of our living culture.

I know this is true because I've seen young New Zealanders overseas, and if they're celebrating it's not long before someone starts doing a haka. Most of us older types remember the warmth between Maori and Pakeha. This relationship between us is central to our identity as New Zealanders.

And people quite rightly perceive that this relationship is deeply threatened by what is happening, by the unravelling we see all around us. So my view is that people's perception of social decay is absolutely accurate.

And my second point is this.

While the underclass that has developed is largely Polynesian and Maori this is not a racial issue. It is a family one, and it has an economic and social root not a racial one. Studies show that children (Maori or Pakeha) born into an unstable home are equally at risk of offending against society. For both races, a dysfunctional family increases those chances a hundredfold.

The assumption that race and crime go together is totally false. (San Francisco story) Realising this makes the problem quite approachable. Solutions are possible. All it requires, like other economic and social problems, is constructing circumstances in which people's natural vitality and natural ambition to do well for their family can be expressed.

First it requires us to look at the problem and how it arose.

The central paradox this country faces today is that you don't cure poverty by simply throwing money at the problem. 60 years ago the emphasis of the welfare system was to make people independent - the problem is that exactly the opposite has occurred.

The emphasis today is on the State and people's welfare is incidental (e.g. Government's attitude to providing education, health and prisons).

The system has become a monstrous perversion of what was originally intended. The State unfortunately has become husband, father, provider, employer and big brother to hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders, and in the process, our values as a country have been changed profoundly.

We hear about the violence in the home and in the pubs, the statistics of abuse, battery and rape. We see the signs of:

1) Boredom, low self-esteem, hopelessness, alienation, drug abuse, crime, a high youth suicide rate all around us.

2) Bad parenting for the new generation.

3) A vicious circle of deprivation and disadvantage.

4) The creation of an underclass on subsistence benefits in perpetuity beyond the pale of a productive, self-respecting society.

5) Should we be surprised at any of this? This answer is clearly no.

When you spoon-feed people all their lives, you rob them of the incentive or even the ability to get out and make a living for themselves and their families. Just giving people money makes them poor.

To break the cycle we've got to set people up to take care of themselves and their families with dignity and independence.

The only moral or ethical policy is one that works. The rest are lies - and in the case of social welfare, expensive, dangerous and deeply damaging lies as well.

The fact is you can forget unemployment, poverty and ethnic background as causes of deep family problems like these - the popular tags are superficial symptoms rather than fundamental causes.

The pivotal issue is the quality and nature of the family and its ability to bring up children well.

Studies show that when we look at multi-problem kids, kids from what we might call chaotic families, they are fifty times more likely to be severely disturbed than those who suffer simply from poverty or simply from unemployment.

Chaotic families manifest themselves in five or six ways:

1) Substance abuse

2) Criminal behaviour

3) Psychiatric disorder

4) Multiple partners

5) Violence

6) Sexual abuse

So what do we do for this group as a matter of social policy?

At the moment, what we are not doing is the more important question. We are not even admitting they exist - and that seems to me to be a catastrophic lack of moral or even practical purpose.

Perhaps because the group is largely Polynesian and Maori we haven't dared confront the issue. We comfortable New Zealanders have this sense, as in a dream, of something chasing us, gaining on us, and we daren't look behind to see what it is.

When being chased in a dream I am advised that you should stop, turn around and face whatever is chasing you. You ask it to do small service and all the fear goes out of the situation. So it is in life. The first point of action is to stop and confront the problem.

Thus:

1) We acknowledge this group exists and that it is growing rapidly.

2) Recognise if we don't do something about it, it will cripple New Zealand. It is in a real sense the cancer within.

3) Recognise that doing something about it helps us all. We are even now paying the cost in terms of police, social welfare, special teachers, probation officers, jails etc.

4) Recognise also that help can only be provided when people have decided to help themselves. So real help has to be in the form of a carrot and a stick. It cannot be all carrot as it is today for those who want to remain dependent.

The incentives are all wrong. And while exceptional individuals may rise above the system, people will generally behave as the incentives drive them.

And let us embrace the fact that the DPB is the worst job creation scheme in the world.

Thirty years ago the illegitimacy rate was negligible (six percent for Maori, to be precise). This year the figure is seventy-eight percent. It is not widely known these days that eight out ten Maori babies are born out of marriage. The Statistics Department says it's a Maori cultural thing.

We all know this is not true. The reason is not cultural but economic. Maori girls leave school poorly equipped for the workplace. They lack confidence. Their school has not given them any skills that people want to pay for. The girls feel rejected, unwanted by the working world. They can't find a place in society or a role to play. So they get pregnant. They find the state a far better provider than their equally poorly skilled classmates. So they don't get married.

Many of these girls having children are hardly more than children themselves. And the problem is compounding. Children born to a solo mother are three times more likely to be solo parents themselves.

And the results are - crime, unemployment, poverty, drug abuse, violence, and mental illness. Maori are all over-represented in these categories and children from solo parent families are extraordinarily vulnerable to suffer these effects.

If money solves these problems New Zealand would be the safest and most successful country in the world. We've spent $171 billion on social welfare in the last twenty-five years and yet crime, violence, and poverty are all increasing.

I believe that the state has actually given up. Tired old parties and tired old politicians repeat themselves - and repeat their mistakes. I believe the reason they are continuing to pour money into social welfare is either because they can't be bothered to think about it or because they're ashamed that all their efforts have made things worse. Now Maori have more dysfunctional families than at any time in our history.

And the glaring fact about these dysfunctional families is not that they are Maori. It is how often they are solo parent families, with pathetically young mothers, hardly grown-up enough to look after themselves.

That is why the DPB for teenagers should be abolished. I am not saying we should do this retroactively. We can't leave young girls whom we have trapped in dependence in even worse circumstances.

Neither will we wash our hands of responsibility for unwanted pregnancy in teenage girls from extraordinary circumstances - rape, incest or suchlike.

But what we have to do is stop enticing more young girls or ever-younger girls into the same hopeless predicament. In practical terms we should say that in one year's time no young teenager getting pregnant would be eligible for the DPB. But those who already have the DPB get to keep it.

That's phasing out this damaging, demoralising, dangerous policy that has been the cause of so many problems in Maori people.

Now there may be parents out there who don't mind if their teenage daughter has a baby. In that case I totally support their right to arrange their family affairs as they want - but it is a private matter. If they want early grandchildren then they can support their child and their grandchild.

It is not a matter for the state.

They should take their child and grandchild back into their whanau - support and cherish and nurture them both.

But don't let the state do it - because the state doesn't care."

The second big issue New Zealand has to face is the question of retirement. How do we fund health and pensions 20 years from now?

I have with me a paper I prepared about 18 months ago on the issue of retirement. My recommendation to the caucus was that they get off the fence and start advocating a funded scheme. I won't have time to deal with it in detail today. (It is on my website www.rogerdouglas.org.nz or contact my office rdouglas@xtra.co.nz and I will email you a copy).

Rather I want to show why it is:

1) a problem

2) how we can solve it

3) how in solving it we can largely solve the problem I have already spoken about (welfare and its consequences).

Last week I was in Australia and this article appeared in the Financial Review:

Let me quote what Treasurer Peter Costello had to say: "Demography is destiny" as he warned that taxes would have to rise by up to 40% unless the economy grew more quickly to generate the income needed to fund the ageing population"

Australia have a problem and obviously so do we because our growth rate over time has been more inferior to theirs, our income less, and our pensions in relative terms, more generous.

Australia's projected increase in spending on age pensions to 2050 is 2% of GDP, New Zealand 6%. Their taxes could go up by 40%. New Zealand's, you guess.

Last weekend's Sunday Star highlighted New Zealand's problems under the heading:

"Frugal future: higher taxes, later retirement and lower pensions."

Included in The Periodic Report Group's 2003 report to Finance Minister Cullen had this to say:

"Healthcare costs will almost double to $13 billion, a jump from 6.3% of GDP to 11.1" and increase of 5%.

Add to this the fact that the cost of pensions will rise by 6% and you have a major problem.

What is ACT's response to this problem?

Currently, simply to sit on the fence. We used to have a policy called Compulsory Savings for everyone.

What happened to that policy? Our finance spokesperson Rodney Hide decided he could no longer support such an approach. In this view he was support by Ken Shirley with Richard sitting somewhere in the middle of two clear factions within caucus.

Rodney, and I quote him from last week's Sunday Star, seems to believe:

"A change to the pensions politicians receive might produce action"

Is this really where ACT's values stand today?

We need to get off the fence and decide once and for all - do we favour immediate tax cuts or a super policy which would lead to even lower taxes over time?

Both approaches have advantages, but for my part I favour the superannuation approach because I believe it would go a long way to solving the social crisis we face in New Zealand. It would also differentiate ACT from all the other political parties in New Zealand. We would clearly have our own niche in the political spectrum, and we need it badly.

Both can be made to easily fit within our "liberal vision".

Tax cuts vs Super Fund

Tax cuts - $3 billion available

Advantages

Puts the money in the hands of individuals to spend as they see fit.

Disadvantages

1) Does nothing to fix other big issues: - The social crisis we face : Super, Welfare, Health and Education.

2) Age for retirement would need to rise to at least 70 over time.

3) Retirement benefit levels would need to be reduced as a percentage of average wages over time.

Other issues

How much room does $3 billion give you?

Not much

Cost

Reducing top personal rate from 39c down to 33c = $ 600m

A 1c reduction in company rate = $150m 33c down to 28c i.e. 6c = $ 900m

1c reduction in 33c personal rate = $100m 33c down to 28c i.e. 6c = $ 600m

1c reduction in 21c = $300m 21c down to 18c i.e. 3 c = $ 900m

$3,000m

Outcome

Virtually nothing for 77% of taxpayers.

Super Fund

Advantages

1) $4,000 real a year saved for 47 years = approximately $1m real capital savings in retirement. (See appendix 1)

2) Married couple = approximately $2m real capital savings in retirement.

3) Alters the incentives faced by those on benefits - 200,000+ back into workforce over 3 to 4 years.

4) Allows you to package changes to Education and Health to reduce government spending over time to no more than the annual increase in the cost of living not the 3½ and 6½ a year real (last 10 years) increase in these respective costs.

5) Enables you to get to a 15c flat company and personal tax rate within 10 years.

6) Changes the way people think about themselves.

7) Major economic benefits flow from superannuation saving of $7-8 billion a year:

(a) Reduction in numbers on welfare. (b) Better use of state assets. (c) Elimination of wasteful government expenditure. (d) Elimination of government debt. (e) Students with no chance of passing university or technical institute exams not enticed to try. (f) Budget surplus reduced and therefore not available for the Labour Government to waste.

(See appendix 2 - How paid for)

Dealing with the issue of retirement also provides us with the opportunity to largely solve the social problems facing New Zealand.

How? By changing the incentives people face.

1) Sticks & carrots work

2) The most powerful motivator in society is self-interest

3) Behaviour can change quite quickly.

The yearly superannuation contributions are the key to changing the current welfare state incentive system.

How? By making people worse off i.e. they lose money when they are on welfare or accident compensation, rather than receive an income from the government or a government body.

People are rewarded when they are providing for themselves and their families by way of lower taxes and a $4,000 contribution to the individual's superannuation account. A non-working partner whose husband or wife is in work would also receive a $4,000 contribution to their superannuation account.

However people not in work between the ages 18-65 (on accident compensation, sickness or unemployment benefit, at university or a technical institute) would have to draw down on the superannuation contributions they would otherwise have received that year before any other help is provided by the government or in the case of a couple, both their contributions.

They are in effect spending what would otherwise have been their own money.

Retirement policy

1) Existing retirees' position is fully protected.

2) People retiring over the next 5 years to receive existing rights plus superannuation savings.

3) From year 6, retirees receive their superannuation savings plus a slightly smaller government pension (phase out of government pension to take 40 years). Super + pension for those who worked for the majority of the time they were between the ages of 18-65 would be considerably higher than today. Today's 18 year olds would be much richer when they retire.

4) A safety net pension for those who were on benefits for most of their working life would be provided.

Welfare policy to go with retirement changes

Solution - Social Welfare, Accident, Sickness, Unemployment

1) Every New Zealander of working age will need to take out catastrophic insurance (beyond 6 months). Such cover would be for:

(a) Accident (b) Sickness (c) Unemployment (d) Other (invalid)

2) Minimum cover to equal existing benefit levels. Cover beyond minimum level required by law would be up to the individual.

3) Those New Zealanders unable to get immediate cover (e.g. existing long-term unemployed) would be given cover by the government until they are able to get private sector cover.

4) New Zealanders will be responsible for the payment of the insurance costs involved in having cover beyond 6 months. This will be made possible by:

(a) Employer contributions. (50%) (of minimum cover cost.)

(b) Existing ACC contributions via PAYE.

(c) Additional income from tax reductions.

(d) Government tax credits for low income earners (e.g. families with children).

(e) Lower premiums as a result of individuals covering the first 6 months of being off work.

5) New Zealanders would be responsible for meeting the costs of their first 6 months of work via:

(a) Existing rights or responsibilities

i) Employer responsibility - (awards, legislation) ii) Individuals - any stand down period (unemployment).

(b) Draw down on government superannuation contributions for year (up to equivalent benefit level in any week).

(c) Government benefit - to extent A & B does not cover 6 months stand down period.

Over time, as these elements of welfare are privatised, the cost to government of meeting accident, sickness and unemployment benefits would reduce to around 10% of what it is today.

Solution - Domestic Purpose Benefit - Existing Beneficiaries

1) Existing DPB would draw down on their own superannuation rights for the year.

2) Depending on circumstances of each case, the father's superannuation rights might be drawn upon before any government contribution made.

3) Given the fact that most schools - pre-school, primary and secondary, now open for business around 7.30 am and remain open until at least 5.30 pm solo parents would be expected to look for part-time or full-time work. Given that 60% of mothers in two parent families work either part or full-time, it seems reasonable to expect solo parents to do the same.

4) The educational tax credit available to solo parents who work either part or full-time could be adjusted to take into account the extra costs involved.

Solution - Domestic Purposes Benefit- Future Beneficiaries

Under 18

1) All benefits and allowances for young people under the age of 18 will be abolished and support for young people aged 16 and 17 without income, e.g. DPB or unemployed will be the responsibility of parents who will in special circumstances be able to draw down on their superannuation fund contributions and those of the father.

2) Emergency assistance in special circumstances will be available for those estranged from their families. Government would draw down on families superannuation rights for that year to help meet any costs.

Over 18 - Solo Parents (never married)

1) Solo Parents would draw down on:

(a) Their own superannuation rights for the year (b) The father's superannuation rights for the year before (c) A government benefit was available.

2) Given the fact that most schools - pre-school, primary and secondary, now open for business around 7.30 am and remained open until at least 5.30 pm solo parents would be expected to look for part-time or full-time work.

3) The educational tax credit available to solo parents who work either part or full-time could be adjusted to take into account the extra costs involved.

Over 18 Solo Parents (previously married) - Both parents working:

1) Given the hours schools are now open both parents would be expected to continue to work.

2) Caregivers tax-free income level would reflect new situation.

3) If non-caregiver failed to meet any support payments due, then non-caregiver's super would be available to caregiver.

Over 18 Solo Parents (previously married) - Caregiver not working

1) Caregiving solo parent would draw down on:

(a) Own super rights (b) Non-caregiver's support payments (c) Non-caregiver's super rights (if b not paid) before (d) A government benefit was available

2) Given the fact that most schools - pre-school, primary and secondary, now open for business around 7.30 am and remained open until at least 5.30 pm solo parents would be expected to look for part-time or full-time work.

3) The educational tax credit available to solo parents who work either part or full-time could be adjusted to take into account the extra costs involved.

Cost to Government

These changes would reduce the cost to government of meeting DPB payments to less than 40% immediately and 20% over time.

ACT must :

1) Lead the charge in demonstrating to people that a viable alternative to current policies exists.

2) The centre right can't win unless it is prepared to lose.

Leading the charge.

1) What does this involve?

(a) Clearly articulating an alternative approach to present social policies.

(b) Presenting that policy in:

i) A stark way ii) Showing both sides of the coin iii) Being practical about it

ACT's job is to put its alternative approach to the voter in a straightforward but stark way e.g. :

1) Is the present welfare, education health and government ownership system worth what it costs you i.e. $1million in capital in your name on retirement?

2) Is it worth the loss of income you will thereby suffer in retirement (i.e. $800 a week)?

3) Is it worth losing the right to send your child to the school of your choice?

(a) Kings College (b) Auckland Grammar etc.

4) Is it worth losing the right to have your own and your family's choice of health insurance?

5) Is owning the Post Office, Broadcasting Services etc. worth $200,000 in capital to you and $10,000 a year in retirement?

Finally - to sum up

1) We have to start putting people ahead of state owned and operated institutions.

2) We have to overcome the problem of provider capture.

3) In the social policy area, we need to do more for consumers by changing the environment in which the service providers operate - more than simply just adding to our so-called investment in the existing institutional set-up.

4) I believe my strategy can deliver on all of these scores. That it offers the means of changing incentives and attitudes so that providers faced the incentive to work in ways that best achieve our goal of putting people - the consumer in the system - first.

(Appendices is on the site of the original article, under "Page 4")


TOPICS: Australia/New Zealand; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: actparty; africanamericans; americanindians; billcrosby; blacks; crime; familyvalues; firstnations; maori; maoris; nativeamericans; newzealand; nzlabour; rogerdouglas; socialproblems; welfaredependency; welfarequeens
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(Note that for the appendices, because numerical tables are difficult to be represented here, I will leave them on the URL link - click on "Page 4" of the speech)

Roger Douglas was the Labour Finance Minister from 1984 to 1988 that started rolling the ball of radical economic and social welfare reforms in New Zealand. His reforms, dubbed "Rogernomics", has revitalized the nation by they now at risk as the current Labour government is trying to dismantle the reforms pieces by pieces using methods familiar for Americans who know US Democrats strategies.

Roger Douglas was a committed socialist Labour member who was mugged by reality and embarked on these reforms. Unfortunately the Labour Party now regards him as a traitor and has banished his periods of economic and social reforms from their official history. (Imagine that a very liberal Democrat, such as Nancy Pelosi, who goes into power and then sells off Amtrak, slashes the top tax rates permanently from 39% to 25%, abolishes all agricultural and industrial subsidies, corporatizes all US airports, reorganized 90% of all federal departments with outsourcing and corporatization and cut all federal employee numbers by over 50%, you will get a better picture of how radical Rogernomics is by NZ Standards)

1 posted on 07/09/2004 5:05:55 PM PDT by NZerFromHK
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To: shaggy eel

Brash ping


2 posted on 07/09/2004 5:07:32 PM PDT by cyborg (the NYT is slipping down the hypotenuse of relevancy)
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To: NZerFromHK
Long post, I'm aware of the problems of the Maori.

Read about the brouhaha in this country over remarks made by Bill Cosby.

The truth is the truth everywhere and the same remedies apply.

3 posted on 07/09/2004 5:31:22 PM PDT by happygrl
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To: NZerFromHK; cyborg; shaggy eel; Kiwigal; happygrl

Roger Douglas may be the best-ever economist to have ever entered a parliament, anywhere on Earth.

Don Brash will be New Zealand's next Prime Minister.

If the New Zealand people and the New Commonwealth of the [Escaped-ANZUS] English-Speaking Peoples and its only worthy ally, Israel and the Judeo-Christian/Western Civilization we vanguard are really blessed, Rodney Hide will be his Deputy.

And the "Maori/Pakeha problem" is being solved -- even as we speak -- in the bedrooms of Island Bay's, Bendigo's, Bowral's Bondi Beach's, Brizzie's, Broadbeach's and Balina's boutique bed and breakfasts!

Blessings -- Brian

BUMPping


4 posted on 07/09/2004 6:59:05 PM PDT by Brian Allen (Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16 -- So mote it be!)
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To: Brian Allen

excellent posts *LOL*


5 posted on 07/09/2004 7:01:04 PM PDT by cyborg (the NYT is slipping down the hypotenuse of relevancy)
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To: Brian Allen; cyborg

I second cyborg's comment: I think Mr Douglas's speech ought to be compulsory read by all US Democrats as his prescription of alleviating social problems among the Maori people applies equally well to African Americans, Hispanics and Native Americans. Moreover, he was a former committed socialist and card-carrying member of the Socialist International, something which even Barbara Lee cannot boast about. (I need to add something that may sound offensive to some American conservatives. I know a lot of you are wary of Hillary Clinton's policies: me too, but I admit she is not as left as we often make her out to be - she is no Helen Clark or Lionel Jospin. Remember she is a hawk on terrorism - something which definitely put her out of the left by Western European standards)


6 posted on 07/09/2004 8:56:40 PM PDT by NZerFromHK
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To: NZerFromHK

I like Donald Brash's speech about all this. Will have to dig around for it but it's great. I wish I saved the freepmail I sent to shaggyeel about this. It was pretty good but Brash's speech was much better.


7 posted on 07/09/2004 8:59:22 PM PDT by cyborg (the NYT is slipping down the hypotenuse of relevancy)
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To: NZerFromHK; Brian Allen; shaggy eel; All

http://www.national.org.nz/

I don't think the issues with the Maori are nearly as troublesome as what the US has to deal with. There was no slavery (as far as I know of) there but the Maori situation is probably a lot closer to the issues of American Indians. Just MHO.


8 posted on 07/09/2004 9:04:05 PM PDT by cyborg (the NYT is slipping down the hypotenuse of relevancy)
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To: cyborg; NZerFromHK; shaggy eel; All

<< .... the Maori situation is probably a lot closer to the issues of American Indians. >>

The "Maori situation" is entirely the creation of Socialist-Internationalist enabled and facilitated historical revisionists and divisiveness-promoters [And other shop-steward-mentality Limey immigrants] who both delusionally-fantasized and taught to several generations of school children an entirely-fabulist Maori "history" and incited the half of New Zealand's population who are of below-average intelligence and such other Labour Party supporters as those too mean-spirited and/or greedy to be otherwise politically inclined to become disgruntled and angry at and by delusional "wrongs" and "deprivations."

Actual pre-Abel Tasman/James Cook/Civilization Maori history [Of endemic warfare, canabilism and lives gruesome, brutal and short] and the actual history of [Generally wonderful] relationships among all of New Zealand's immigrant peoples bear no relationship whatsoever to the horrors conjured up by New Zealand's ludicrous-left-wing Labour Party racists.

Kiwis will soon shrug off their moron-and-self-serving socialists, will restore race relations to the harmonious state they once enjoyed -- and will turn their nation back toward the Civilized world.

Blessings -- Brian


9 posted on 07/09/2004 9:53:53 PM PDT by Brian Allen (Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16 -- So mote it be!)
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To: Brian Allen

Kiwis will soon shrug off their moron-and-self-serving socialists, will restore race relations to the harmonious state they once enjoyed -- and will turn their nation back toward the Civilized world.

*** From your lips to God's ears. I would hate to see NZ descend into the race baiting sewer political situation that I observe stateside.


10 posted on 07/09/2004 9:56:24 PM PDT by cyborg (the NYT is slipping down the hypotenuse of relevancy)
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To: cyborg

This could complicate the issue I agree, but I believe any collective responsbility the United States has for the burden of slavery was swept in 1865. And let us admit that racism could play a part in what Af-Americans had to face (and some even still exists today), but then again Maori also suffered (and suffers in some instances) from racism so I would guess the situation is the same.

After what happened during the civil Rights era, I believe the American blacks are in the same standing as Maori people in NZ today but that's just my own 2 cents.


11 posted on 07/10/2004 12:41:55 AM PDT by NZerFromHK
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To: cyborg
There was no slavery (as far as I know of) there

,,, the Maoris wouldn't want you to know it, but before New Zealand was colonized, they were one of the biggest group of slave traders in the southseas. Inter-tribal hatred has now simmered down to old scores being settled if there was ever a revolution here, but it's not all that visible these days. The Moriori were much worse off under pre-European colonization.

12 posted on 07/11/2004 2:32:04 PM PDT by shaggy eel
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To: shaggy eel

They should be thankful in not so many ways that they didn't suffer the fate of Africans and the Aboriginies,etc.


13 posted on 07/11/2004 2:49:24 PM PDT by cyborg
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To: Brian Allen; NZerFromHK; cyborg; shaggy eel

Roger really has a fantastic mind. If only we had more politicians like him.

Don Brash is the one thing that will inspire me to vote for National, rather than Act, at the next election (I'm still allowed to vote even though I am in the mother country now - hooray!)

Act seems to have been getting itself into all sorts of trouble recently - and I'm not just talking about Donna. The leadership thing has caused them to lack a bit of coherency and momentum when it comes to their policies. The best thing that could happen to Act at the moment is for National to win the next election and make Act its coalition partner. Much better chance of that happening with Brash as leader than Bill.

As for the Maori thing, I wish that more Maori would realise that theirs is a culture that most NZers cherish.

I was home from work for 3 days last week on study leave (I have to sit a qualified lawyers transfer test to qualify as an English solicitor). I live next to a primary school. On Wednesday afternoon, I thought I was going through a bit of a homesick phase because I could hear the haka. Eventually I realised that actually I could hear the haka - I looked out the window and the hall of the primary school was full of kids doing the haka. I got all misty-eyed. The same thing happened on Thursday and on Friday, just before my exam, strains of Tu tira mai nga iwi drifted through the window. These small children, at a primary school in Islington (not your most affluent London suburb, unless you count Tony Blair, and he sends his kids elsewhere to school) were learning our culture.

It binds us and identifies us as kiwis everywhere. I went to watch the rugby sevens at Twickenham a month or so ago and some english blokes were giving me a rough time about the number of Islanders on the team ("you guys have to import your players from the island colonies"). I told him that, while some of them may not have been born in NZ, NZ was the largest of the pacific islands and was full of islanders - it's part of our culture, and not just Maori.

There are bad sorts all over the world. Crime is not a matter of skin colour, nor is poverty. Perhaps if the lefty activists stopped rubbing statistics in every Maori's face that said "you are more likely than your white neighbour to commit a crime, be a teenage pregnancy statistic, whatever", then maybe they will fight harder to get out of the stereotype, rather than accept it as something they can't prevent.

Oh dear, I have ranted a bit - sorry all!

Long live Roger.


14 posted on 07/12/2004 12:03:05 PM PDT by Kiwigal (now kiwigal in London!)
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To: Kiwigal
The leadership thing has caused them to lack a bit of coherency and momentum when it comes to their policies.

,,, their policies have remained consistent and unfaultering despite the question of leadership, which was resolved a month ago - in fact, their policies are so good that NATIONAL has burgled them lock, stock and ammo. ACT, having positioned themselves specifically as a Party of influence knows it can work well with King Don when he takes over next election. The country will be in good order by the time you're deported back [LOL].

15 posted on 07/12/2004 12:53:12 PM PDT by shaggy eel
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To: shaggy eel
Good morning Shaggy! Tough to keep up with things when you're on the other side of the world. I should perhaps have said that Act now seems<> to lack coherency!
16 posted on 07/12/2004 12:56:32 PM PDT by Kiwigal
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To: shaggy eel

damn. have forgotten how to do italics


17 posted on 07/12/2004 12:57:20 PM PDT by Kiwigal
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To: Kiwigal
I should perhaps have said that Act now seems<> to lack coherency!

,,, even that would be wrong. Go to their website and tell me what's changed. Their problem has always been getting their message across to people who vote Labour because that's how their parents voted... the same people who can tell you the last rugby score or the Lotto numbers but can't explain why the government they voted for are running a $NZ7,4b surplus and not paying teachers, nurses and medical specialists enough to stay in this country.

18 posted on 07/12/2004 1:08:01 PM PDT by shaggy eel
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To: Kiwigal; shaggy eel

I'm glad that Don Brash has revitalized National although I'm still inclined to vote Act on party vote. The situation pre-Brash was too much like Canada where not too long ago their main centre-right party, the Progressive Conservatives, was too wimpy and controlled by their Red Tories faction - kind of like our Simon Upton controlling National. The Canadian Alliance Party was the main principled party on the right (similar to our own Act Party) and has split their votes on the right (compounding the plight was that Canada is still using First Past the Post) and disasters followed.

They have recently merged into one party (Conservative party of Canada) and the Red Tories had gone into the Liberals camp. Though they did quite poorly in the election 2 weeks ago it was a dramatic improvement from 2000. Bearing in mind that our centre-right attracts major urban voters to a degree that our Canadian counterparts couldn't, I'm cautiously optimistic as to what will happen by the end of next year.


19 posted on 07/12/2004 3:26:54 PM PDT by NZerFromHK
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To: NZerFromHK
I'm cautiously optimistic as to what will happen by the end of next year.

,,, don't speak like there's something to lose. We have to take our country back from the grips of Marxist lesbian rule. You'll note that spending on roads and infrastructure is now being announced and Treaty issues haven't got the media's attention. They're shifting the emphasis to spending on real issues as the focus is on the major budget surplus. Real taxpayers must see real spending if Labour has any chance next election. Cullen won't give individuals or companies tax cuts - he forgets that Shipley promised those and never delivered. That was a nail in her coffin.

20 posted on 07/12/2004 3:35:34 PM PDT by shaggy eel
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