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To: Do not dub me shapka broham; Cincinatus' Wife; tallhappy; ExSoldier; Jeff Head
You can't defeat an idea whose time has come with a tank, submarine or cruise missile.

What if that idea is the notion that Chinese culture is the true destiny of the human race, and that only due to misfortune has the "oldest" civilization been "asleep" all these long years?

I'm not saying they all feel this way, but there is a resonating bell gonging in the distance. It's Chinese nastionalism, and it's raw, fascist, and vengeful. If we underestimate it, we'll be overrun in less than 50 years. If we rise to meet the challenge, we'll have some trade relation issues and we'll be able to focus on other issues.

The choice is ours. Prepare, and maybe just maybe we won't have the fight of our lives on our hands. Ignore the steady drumbeat of nationalism and watch the dragon roar.

If you wonder why Japan is willing to stand with us on Iraq, look east. Yes, it's North Korea. But it is also Taiwan and mainland China. The Japanese know what we are reluctant to accept: China is a global powderkeg.

34 posted on 11/20/2004 11:40:46 PM PST by risk
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To: risk

I think you've hit the nail on the head, as witnessed by Japan putting a lot of cash (via bonds and buying property)
here.
I sure hope the free trade crowd are correct, 'cause we have feed a tiger for a long time.


38 posted on 11/20/2004 11:50:00 PM PST by investigateworld (( ......"Bob, I bled from every wound", Sen. J. Kerry to Sen. R. Dole ...))
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To: risk
Derbyshire: SORRY STATE (Communist, Nationalist, and Dangerous)***................OBSTACLES TO EMPIRE The grand project of restoring and Sinifying the Manchu dominions has unfortunately met three stumbling blocks. The first was Outer Mongolia, from which the Chinese garrison was expelled following the collapse of Manchu rule. The country declared independence in 1921 under Soviet auspices, and that independence was recognized by Chiang Kai-shek's government in 1945, in return for Soviet recognition of themselves as the "the Central Government of China." Mao seems not to have been very happy about this. In 1954, he asked the Soviets to "return" Outer Mongolia. I do not know the position of China's current government towards Outer Mongolia, but I should not be surprised to learn that somewhere in the filling cabinets of China's defense ministry is a detailed plan for restoring Outer Mongolia to the warm embrace of the Motherland, as soon as a suitable opportunity presents itself.

The second is Taiwan. No Chinese Imperial dynasty paid the least attention to Taiwan, or bothered to claim it. The Manchus did, though, in 1683, and ruled it in a desultory way, as a prefecture of Fujian Province, until 1887, when it was upgraded to a province in its own right. Eight years later it was ceded to Japan, whose property it remained until 1945. In its entire history, it has been ruled by Chinese people seated in China's capital for less than four years. China's current attitudes to Taiwan are, I think, pretty well known.

And the third stumbling block to the restoration of China's greatness is…….the United States. To the modern Chinese way of thinking, China's proper sphere of influence encompasses all of East Asia and the western Pacific. This does not mean that they necessarily want to invade and subjugate all the nations of that region, though they certainly do want to do just that to Taiwan and some groups of smaller islands. For Japan, Korea, the Philippines, Micronesia, etc., the old imperial-suzerainty model would do well enough, at least in the short term. These places could conduct their own internal affairs, so long as they acknowledged the overlordship of Beijing, and, above all, did not enter into alliances, nor even close friendships, with other powers.

Which, of course, too many of them have done, the competitor power in every case being the U.S. It is impossible to overstate how angry it makes the Chinese to think about all those American troops in Japan, Korea, and Guam, together with the U.S. Seventh Fleet steaming up and down in "Chinese" waters, and electronic reconnaissance planes like the EP-3 brought down on April 1 operating within listening distance of the mainland. If you tackle Chinese people on this, they usually say: "How would you feel if there were Chinese troops in Mexico and Jamaica, and Chinese planes flying up and down your coasts?" Leaving aside the fact that front companies for the Beijing regime now control both ends of the Panama Canal, as well as Freeport in the Bahamas, the answer is that the United States is a democracy of free people, whose government derives its just powers from the consent of the governed, so that the wider America's influence spreads, the better for humanity: while China is a corrupt, brutish, and lawless despotism, the close containment of which is a pressing interest for the whole human race. One cannot, of course, expect Chinese people to be very receptive to this answer.

Or, indeed, to anything much we have to say on the subject of their increasing militant and assertive nationalism. We simply have no leverage here. It is no use trying to pretend that this is the face-saving ideology of a small leadership group, forced on an unwilling populace at gunpoint. The Chinese people respond eagerly to these ultra-nationalist appeals: That is precisely why the leadership makes them. Resentment of the U.S., and a determination to enforce Chinese hegemony in Asia, are well-nigh universal among modern mainland Chinese. These emotions trump any desire for constitutional government, however much people dislike the current regime for its corruption and incompetence. Find a mainlander, preferably one under the age of thirty, and ask him which of the following he would prefer: for the Communists to stay in power indefinitely, unreformed, but in full control of the "three T's" (Tibet, Turkestan, Taiwan); or a democratic, constitutional government without the three T's. His answer will depress you. You can even try this unhappy little experiment with dissidents: same answer.

Is there anything we can do about all this? One thing only. We must understand clearly that there will be lasting peace in East Asia when, and only when, China abandons her atavistic fantasies of imperial hegemony, withdraws her armies from the 2 million square miles of other people's territory they currently occupy, and gets herself a democratic government under a rule of law. Until that day comes, if it ever does, the danger of war will be a constant in relations between China and the world beyond the Wall, as recent events in the South China Sea have illustrated. Free nations, under the indispensable leadership of the United States, must in the meantime struggle to maintain peace, using the one, single, and only method that wretched humanity, in all its millennia of experience, has so far been able to devise for that purpose: Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.***

65 posted on 11/21/2004 2:05:50 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: risk
What if that idea is the notion that Chinese culture is the true destiny of the human race, and that only due to misfortune has the "oldest" civilization been "asleep" all these long years?

First of all, I thought Islam was the idea whose time had come?

As a teacher of World History, I think when the world realizes that Chinese philosophy is singularly unaccepting of foreign influences (ever hear of the Boxer Rebellion?) to the point of xenophobia, then nationalism will only succeed in China. Only in the sense that it's possible for cultural revolution to take place inside China, but I have very little fear it will spread globally as a peaceful process. Then it becomes a military problem that has a military solution.

Whups, time for me to go to Church. I'll pick this up and finish later. God Bless, y'all.

96 posted on 11/21/2004 6:18:48 AM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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