Posted on 04/16/2005 9:03:04 AM PDT by NYer
We are pleased to report that the sale of what was purported to be a Host consecrated by Pope John Paul II and put up for sale on eBay, the on-line auctioneer, has been withdrawn, with the Host handed over to the Diocese of Sioux City, Iowa, where the seller is located [see previous story].
The issue garnered national media attention when, within minutes of a link to it on this website Wednesday night,, a Cupertino, California, man offered $2,000 for the Host to keep it out of the hands of witches, satanists, or souvenir hunters.
Although eBay claimed it received "a few" protests, the California man told us that he received 500 e-mails in just the several hours his address was displayed on Spirit Daily, before he asked us to remove his name, preferring anonymity.
Earlier Friday, Monsignor Roger J. Augustine, administrator of the Diocese of Sioux City, met with the seller and was advised that the sale would not be consummated. According to Msgr. Augustine, the seller deeply regretted the effort to sell the Eucharist and extended a personal apology to him, the diocese and any others who had been offended by the eBay listing. Because the transaction never materialized, there was no money exchanged or received.
"The Eucharist detailed in the eBay auction was given to Msgr. Augustine and has been properly disposed of according to the dictates of Catholic Church law," states a diocesan press release. "'As I said earlier this week, the Eucharist represents the true presence of Jesus Christ to Catholics,' said Msgr. Augustine. 'I am most grateful that the seller agreed that it was in everyone's best interest to bring this issue to a positive conclusion.'"
Continues the press release: "The issue of the attempted sale of the Eucharist has attracted both national and international attention with e-mails and fax messages coming into the diocesan office from countless communities. Although this specific issue has been resolved, the diocese still has differences with eBay and its policy governing the listing of items that are offensive to people of faith. E-Bay officials contend they see nothing offensive with the sale of such items on their website. Many Catholic organizations and individuals have taken issue with that policy and apparently are making their opinions known to eBay officials."
Meanwhile, the man who purchased the Host, a member of the Knights of Columbus, told us that he is more than pleased with the outcome. "I'm overwhelmed with the silent majority and how they spoke up and took action in this case," he told us, referring to the many who voiced outrage [see secular report].
There were two bids before he placed his $2,000 offer, one for $120 and one for $150.
"I am not a Catholic and do not believe I'm going to hell for selling this collectible," said the owner in his original advertisement. "It's a memento from that great afternoon with Pope John Paul II. Yes, this is the actual Eucharist I saved during the Mass that I participated in on October 18th, 1998. I ate one wafer then I went back and got another one to save and he gave me another one, but I did get a very dirty look! I was studying in Florence that semester and a bunch of us went down to Rome that week to partake. I'm not Catholic, but I found it all very interesting. Along with the Eucharist, I have the program from that day and a little bulletin. It's all in Italian. I also have four stamps from the Vatican that year and a bottle opener that I bought when I was in Rome way back in 1992. From what I understand, if you're holding something in your hand during a certain moment when Pope John Paul II spoke during his Mass, it becomes blessed. I was holding this bottle opener during Mass with him in 1992. It has his picture on one side and a picture of the Trevi Fountain on the other."
The seller went on to explain that everything from 1998 (Eucharist, bulletin, program, and stamps) were encased in plastic in his "scratch book" and all were in "awesome condition." Photos authenticating his presence there that day were also to be included (although we cannot verify any of his claims).
It isn't like they are going to know I am Protestant.
What are they going to do, throw me out?
Well, you could always receive communion while pretending to be a Catholic.
But, if you made a point of making known where you stood on the matter and then got in to communion line anyway, I would expect the priest to simply deny it to you.
What are you going to do then?
If you answer involves anything to the affect of forcing yourself physically or disrupting the mass... you'd be out on your ass before you knew what hit you.
My Missal mentions only four groups allowed to receive Communion: Catholics (of course), The Orthodox, The Polish National Catholic Church, and the Assyrian Church of the East. Now whether they let their members receive our Eucharist, that is another matter.
John 6:53-58, on its face, seems to confirm what the RC's claim about the Real Presence:
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.Taken in its most literal and straightforward interpretation, this seems to suggest that Christ commanded people to literally feed upon himself - and that was clearly the sense in which his hearers took it (and they didn't like it one bit; many left over this). From this passage, as well as 1Co. 11, it is easy to exegete the Real Presence, if one sees fit.
54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
-- John 6:53-58 [NASB]
Now, as Presbyterians, you and I both see Communion as a sign of the covenant, so that we are symbolically feeding upon Christ. Christ is symbolically and spiritually present in Communion; not physically. We reject the Catholic line of thinking that communion wafers are in accidence unchanged, but in essence, become the Body of Christ. We're close, in that we believe that they are spiritually His body, but reject the accidence/essence thing as a medieval theological invention.
But Catholics believe in the accidence/essence distinction as a matter of dogma - it's one of the defining characteristics of the Catholic Church. Indeed, you can reject the primacy of the Pope and any of their theological pronouncements since the Great Schism of 1056 A.D., as the Orthodox have, but because the Orthodox affirm transubstantiation as well, they are welcomed to partake of the Eucharist. But for those of us who do not believe in the Real Presence, they believe it is dangerous for us to take of it because we do not "discern the Lord's body," and don't know what we are getting ourselves into.
Because I have too much respect for the Catholic church to violate their beliefs, in the handful of instances I have found myself in a Catholic service, when the time for the Eucharist comes, I remain seated. I must respect their position, even while I disagree with it, because to violate it, to a Catholic, would be in reality, be desecration.
"You that abhor idols, do you desecrate temples?" (Rom. 2:22, my rendering based off of Louw-Nida's semantic domain of ierosuleoo, which has a broader meaning than the traditional rendering of "rob.") I don't care if you think that the Catholics are dead wrong in their belief of transubstantiation. You have no right to desecrate what they believe is sacred.
The Orthodox do. That's why all Catholic missals encourage Orthodox to come forward and take of the Eucharist, whereas I, as a Protestant, am advised I should not.
I see ecumenicalism isn't important to you. It was important to Pope John Paul II.
"The absolute nerve of you..."
Thank you. I am amazed by the Charity of Catholics on this board addressing someone so insensitive as to question the Dogma of a Church that she has no intention of joining or participating in worship.
The question was answered with grace and compassion. The answers should be accepted with the same.
The only way the RC's should give me Holy Communion is if they believe it is okay for me, as a guy who doesn't believe in the Real Presence, to take of it. If they believe it would work to my detriment, they are obligated to withhold it from me. What is not from faith is sin, Romans 14:23.
What is not from faith is sin, Romans 14:23.
I'll leave such judgements to God.
Now that you have read this thread, do you understand why? Also, you can't be denied admission to any college base of religion , race, or creed, that is against the law, surely the scenarios are not one in the same to you.
As Msgr. Augustine said, Catholics believe that "the Eucharist represents the true presence of Jesus Christ" in the Host.
That is not the case with Protestant denominations who believe that the host is merely symbolic. At a Protestant service I have been to, they passed a tray of chopped up Wonder Bread around, up and down the pews, as if they were passing out sandwiches at a picnic.
So, you have a situation where "Communion" is believed to be different things by different Christians.
The reason that Catholics found this incident so shocking is that it would literally represent the Body of Christ being sold on eBay.
To a Protestant without such a belief, it would merely represent a souvenir not much different that a Church program being sold on eBay.
For such reasons, Catholics do not consider Communion open to just anyone just as Protestant Churches would not consider Baptism opened to just anyone who wanted to try out the experience regardless of whether or not they believed in what Baptism means.
Someone with some guts. Good man Msgr. Augustine!!!!
You are correct. The Eucharist IS Christ.
Don't care what others think. We KNOW what it is. That's what is importnat. What we KNOW NOT what others think. It's our religion.
You said ....The difference is we don't believe the bread/wine are physically changed as Catholics do, but that the body and blood of Christ ARE present in, not symbolized by, the bread/wine.
Re-read your words......our Hosts do not turn into a slab of meat and blood, but it IS changed into the Body and Blood of Christ. That is what the Mass IS....that's what it's all about.
OH MY!
I am so sorry. I misread your post and thought YOU were the non-Catholic!
I must have been in shock!
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