Florida State Can Keep Its Seminoles

NY Times ^ | August 24, 2005 | ROBERT ANDREW POWELL

[neverdem]

There was never any doubt where the Seminole Tribe of Florida stood on Florida State University's nickname. The tribe helped university boosters create the costume for the Chief Osceola mascot, approving the face paint, flaming spear and Appaloosa horse that have no connection to Seminole history.

Yesterday, the National Collegiate Athletic Association agreed with the 3,100-member tribe and the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, which had also endorsed the nickname. The N.C.A.A. removed Florida State from the list of universities banned from using what it called "hostile and abusive" mascots and nicknames during postseason play.

"The N.C.A.A. executive committee continues to believe the stereotyping of Native Americans is wrong," Bernard Franklin, the association's senior vice president for governance and membership, said in a statement. "However, in its review of the particular circumstances regarding Florida State, the staff review committee noted the unique relationship between the university and the Seminole Tribe of Florida as a significant factor."

A student dressed as Chief Osceola will ride bareback on the Appaloosa horse Renegade to midfield before the season opener against Miami on Sept. 5 in a ceremony indigenous to only Doak Campbell Stadium in Tallahassee.

"The N.C.A.A. recognizes the many different points of view on this matter, particularly within the Native American community," Franklin added. "The decision of a namesake sovereign tribe, regarding when and how its name and imagery can be used, must be respected even when others may not agree."

On Aug. 5, the N.C.A.A. executive committee banned the use of what it called hostile and abusive nicknames and imagery by its members, at least in postseason tournaments. The ban, which is scheduled to go into effect in February, concerns logos, signs in stadiums, cheerleader and band uniforms, and mascots.

"It's not about an effort to be politically correct," Myles Brand, the...

[neverdem]

Phil Sears, Tallahassee Democrat, via Associated Press
The N.C.A.A. exempted Florida State from a ban against using Indian mascots in the postseason after an appeal by the university and the Seminole Nation.

Marc Serota for The New York Times
Joe Cypress, who calls himself an "original Seminole," said he was not bothered by Florida State's mascot. The N.C.A.A. president, Myles Brand, said the ban was not "about an effort to be politically correct."

Marc Serota for The New York Times
A mailbox at a residence on the Mickosoukee Indian Reservation.

[Old_Mil]

Curious how there's a move by the NCAA to ban Indian mascots, but not "Orangemen" (an Irish Protestant terrorist group) or "Fighting Irish" (insulting to the Irish) or ...

Well, you get the idea. Another hypocritical move by the left.

[Howlin]

The N.C.A.A. president, Myles Brand, said the ban was not "about an effort to be politically correct."

Then what was it about, dimbulb?

[metmom]

Has anyone ever thought of asking the Indians what THEY think of the whole matter? My understanding is that it really doesn't bother them. Isn't it better than completely erasing the memory of the Indians from everybody's minds? And where do these presumably white guys get off deciding what offends certain groups of people and what doesn't? Isn't that oppressive? If I get offended, I'll let you know.

[Columbus Dawg]

Good for Florida State.

Next they will complain about Buckeyes coming from trees, so they must be protected.

[Founding Father]

Gee whiz, does anyone want to dicuss the studies done on the Kennewick Man? Results: Indians ain't "Native" Americans. Another hyphen bites the dust!

[Wycowboy]

Who's going to stick-up for the "Fighting Whiteys"? Are they not human? Do they not have feelings? How can people be so insensitive?

[Just Lori]

On Aug. 5, the N.C.A.A. executive committee banned the use of what it called hostile and abusive nicknames and imagery by its members, at least in postseason tournaments. The ban, which is scheduled to go into effect in February, concerns logos, signs in stadiums, cheerleader and band uniforms, and mascots.


These politically correct idiots really need to get a life. Breathe some fresh air, have a little fun once in awhile. Pretty soon they'll be banning winners and losers so no one gets their feelings hurt.

[dk/coro]

What a bunch of crap. These educators are all politically correct -- or they would be tossed out on their collective ears.

I still mourn for my old Miami Redskins -- and Woody Hayes is turning in his grave because of the ludicrous re-naming of my alma-mater's football team.

How I despise the liberal desecration of our great Nation.

[Sprite518]

Outstanding! Now it is really going to be hard for the NCAA to enforce it since they now allow FSU.

[Conservomax]

While I have no problem with the term "the fighting Irish", the Notre Dame logo is somewhat insulting.

I can hear it saying.

"Oi ye took me beer, I'll box ye ears ye hun."

Actually, that was me channeling grandpa.

[Columbus Dawg]

That sucked when Miami changed their name. They have a great tradition. It's "The Cradle of Coaches."

Woody may not be the only one turning in his grave or shaking their head over that one.

BTW, I am looking forward to the September 3rd matchup at the 'Shoe between Miami and OSU. These MAC teams scare me. I know one of them is going to come into Ohio Stadium and beat the Buckeyes. Woody's grave would shake if Miami beat OSU and it would be felt a couple of miles away at Ohio Stadium.
Ohio State is not the only strong team in the state. Some of these other teams are damn good.

[Torie]

You know these mascots so lower the esteem of Native Americans, that they engage in substance abuse and other such self destructive behavior as a result. It is veritably killing a culture, killing a people. How do I know this? Because I heard it on talk radio this very day. Think about it.

[Howlin]

I just cannot figure out why it's only bad during post season games.

[Kryptonite]

The NCAA believes it only has the authority to regulate post-season games. If it had the nads to do it, all games would be subject to regulation, no matter how hypocritical (why isn't Notre Dame being targeted), and stupid such a decision would be.

Before this, the NCAA stood as an example of a namby-pamby organization. Now they'll just be plain old wacko.

[Smokin' Joe]

Yes, but can North Dakota keep the "Fighting Sioux"?

[flying Elvis]

I know a number of full blooded Choctaws and asked them about it several years ago. They thought it was a stupid issue and was only important to chronic whiners.

[Kryptonite]

The Fighting Susies are asking lots of questions.....here's a letter an alum of UND sent to me. FWIW, IMO an injunction will issue barring implementation of the misguided NCAA policy before it takes effect.

---

An Open Letter to the NCAA:

The quiet serenity of our beautiful campus was disturbed early August 5 by news reports that the NCAA had decided to address the Indian nickname issue. The early reports were unclear; the words mascot, nickname, and logo were used interchangeably, and the loaded words "abusive" and "hostile" were invoked without definition and without any real clear idea as to how they were being applied. We don't have a mascot, and our logo was designed by a very well-respected American Indian artist. We couldn't imagine that these reports would apply to us.

Later, we saw the full release. While it looked like the action taken by the NCAA was insulting, and a flagrant abuse of power, we knew that good, well-meaning people were involved in the decision and we wanted to consider our reaction carefully.

We were initially stunned by the charge "abusive" and "hostile," and then angry. We reflected and gave it a week before drafting this response. I must admit to sinking at one point during the past week to the notion that my Association was guilty of "political correctness run amok" as suggested by some papers.

We want to file an appeal, but first we need to know the basis for your decisions. We need the answers to some questions first, in other words.

. . .

Is it the use of Indian names, images, and/or mascots to which you are opposed? If it is all of the above, which logos, images, and mascots do you indict by your announcement? Is it only certain ones? As I said, a very respected Indian artist designed and created a logo for the University. The logo is not unlike those found on United States coins and North Dakota highway patrol cars and highway signs. So we can't imagine that the use of this image is "abusive" or "hostile" in any sense of these words.

Is it the use of the names of tribes that you find hostile and abusive?

Not long ago I took a trip to make a proposal to establish an epidemiological program to support American Indian health throughout the Upper Great Plains. On this trip I left a state called North Dakota. (Dakota is one of the names the indigenous people of this region actually call themselves.) I flew over South Dakota, crossing the Sioux River several times, and finally landed in Sioux City, Iowa, just south of Sioux Falls, South Dakota. The airplane in which I traveled that day was called a Cheyenne.

I think you should find my confusion here understandable, since obviously if we were to call our teams "The Dakotans," we would actually be in more direct violation of what apparently you are trying to establish as a rule, even though this is the name of our state. This situation, of course, is not unlike that faced by our sister institution in Illinois.

Is it only when some well-meaning people object to the use of the names of tribes? If so, what standard did you use to decide where the line from acceptable to "hostile" and "abusive" is crossed? We note that you exempted a school with a certain percentage of American Indian students. We have more than 400 American Indian students here. Who decided that a certain percentage was okay, but our percentage was not? Where is the line between okay and hostile/abusive?

We have two Sioux tribes based here in North Dakota. One has, in fact, objected to our use of the name, "Sioux," applied to our sports teams. The other said it was okay, provided that we took steps to ensure that some good comes of it, in educating people and students about the cultural heritage of this region. This mix of opinions is apparently not unlike that faced by our sister institution in Florida.

Is it only about applying names to sports teams? If so, would this be extended to the use of the names of all people, or is it just American Indians? Why would you exempt the "Fighting Irish" from your consideration, for example? Or ?Vikings," which are really fighting Scandinavians, or "Warriors," which I suppose could be described as fighting anybodies? Wouldn't it be "discrimination on account of race" to have a policy that applies to Indians but not to Scandinavians or the Irish, or anybody else for that matter? This seems especially profound in light of a letter to me from President Brand (8/9/05) in which he, in very broad-brush fashion and inconsistent with the NCAA's recent much narrower pronouncement, said, "we believe that mascots, nicknames or images deemed hostile or abusive in terms of race, ethnicity or national origin should not be visible at our events." (my emphasis)

As to the flagrant abuse of power question, I want to make sure I have this straight. We've recently built some magnificent facilities costing well over $100 million, under rules permitting us to host championship tournaments and otherwise participate fully in NCAA sanctioned activities, in which the very architecture of the building incorporates names and images of American Indian people. Do you really expect us now to spend large amounts of money to erase what we consider to be respectful images and names of Indian people who inhabited this region in the interest of the NCAA Executive Committee?

Hostile and abusive??

Help me understand why you think "hostile and abusive" applies to us. We have more than 25 separate programs in support of American Indian students here receiving high-end university educations. Included among these is an "Indians Into Medicine" program, now 30+ years running, that has generated 20 percent of all American Indian doctors in the United States. We have a similar program in Nursing, one in Clinical Psychology, and we are about to launch an "Indians into Aviation" program in conjunction with our world-class Odegard School of Aerospace Sciences. I am very proud when I visit reservations in our state to see that a large number of the teachers, doctors, Tribal College presidents, and other leaders are graduates of the University of North Dakota.

Do you really expect us to host a tournament in which these names and images are covered in some way that would imply that we are ashamed of them?

Concerning tournaments already scheduled: Is the NCAA taking the position that it can actually unilaterally modify a contract already made? Perhaps the charge (sometimes heard) that the NCAA exhibits too much of the arrogance that comes from its status as a monopoly -- apart from the question of whether it's an effective organization -- does indeed have a basis.

If the NCAA has all this power, why not use it to restore intercollegiate athletics to the ideal of sportsmanship by decoupling intercollegiate athletics from its corruption by big budgets? Why not use the power to put a halt to the out-of-control financial arms race that threatens to corrupt even higher education itself?

Yes, I know that in theory the NCAA is actually an association, and that UND is a member of it, and therefore it's really we who are doing all of these things to ourselves, or failing to do all of these things ourselves. But is the NCAA really a democratic organization? Why did we not put these issues to a vote by all member schools??

In his USA Today essay, Myles Brand proclaimed that this is a teachable moment, suggesting that the NCAA decision is "aimed at initiating a discussion on a national basis about how American Indians have been characterized . . . ." Great idea! Let's have the discussion -- one that we should have had before this ruling was handed down, one that actually includes American Indians and puts this in the perspective of all that is important to them at this time in history. And while we are at it, why not also address the state of intercollegiate athletics -- whether or not student-athletes at some schools are being exploited, and whether or not there is an out-of-control financial "arms race" threatening the integrity of higher education itself.

In considering how to appeal, we find it exasperating that we can't tell what the basis for your initial decision was and how you singled us out in the first place. In a letter from Myles Brand to me (8/9/05) he suggests that we could, in an appeal, argue that our symbols or mascots do not create a hostile or abusive environment. But his letter also seems to suggest that as long as some think the environment is hostile, case closed.

By the way, the last time this issue was stirred up on our campus, a formal charge was made to the Office for Civil Rights that the use of our logo or nickname created a hostile environment here at the University. The Office for Civil Rights sent a half-dozen people to our campus. They fanned out across campus and after more than a week here, found no such thing. Did the Executive Committee find some things they missed, perhaps? Or does a committee in Indianapolis trump the Office for Civil Rights here, on the ground, in North Dakota?

Finally, I expect that we will file an appeal, because should we wish to take this issue to court, the courts would undoubtedly ask if we have exhausted all administrative remedies. Please send us the appropriate application forms, and give us an indication of how the appeal will be heard and when. If the timing of this appeal were such that your deadline occurs before the appeal is resolved, we would ask that the deadline be put off, otherwise we may well have to go to the expense of seeking an injunction halting the imposition of these policies until all of our questions can be answered satisfactorily.

We thank you in advance for considering our questions.

Sincerely,Charles E. KupchellaPresident

[Howlin]

You know, I always wonder what goes on in the minds of people who sit around thinking up stuff to be offended by.

Not once in my life have I ever given one second of thought about those mascot names mocking Indians; in fact, quite the opposite.

I'm sure someone will be right along to tell me I'm just a silly white Southern girl who could never understand.

[Smokin' Joe]

My favorite line (emphasis added) :

Or does a committee in Indianapolis trump the Office for Civil Rights here, on the ground, in North Dakota?