Posted on 12/27/2005 4:58:53 AM PST by liberallarry
I gotta give Larry this one.. Gold mining is a heavy producer of toxic waste..
Hmmm - the world wants/needs gold, and you gotta admit, someone, somewhere will mine it using the most efficient methods [regardless of toxic waste]
Not that it has to be, it's just that cleanup cuts into the profit margin, and most mines / miners don't want to bear that cost..
True enough.. But does the world want to bear the cost of a authoritarian UN type government capable of dictating mining methods worldwide?
How else do you two propose to 'clean up' New Guinea?
But do you think this research will actually convince people? Say yes and maybe I'll be less cynical. It's such a struggle...
I agree some mining processes are real nasty, but where the stuff is mined is way up in themountain, and it's not even processed on the island.The ore is amde into a slurry and sent down the mountain via a pipeline. The only pollutant in this case is the overburden. Dirt in the river. It's called mud, and it's not something new.
Come up with workeable answers and you win the Nobel prize for saving humanity and become the greatest saint who ever lived.
Nature is not sentient and therefore is neutral as to what transpires. Since that area is volcanic all tracks of man will eventually disappear.
Come up with workeable answers and you win the Nobel prize for saving humanity and become the greatest saint who ever lived.
You admit that you have no answer. Thank you.. -- For a while there, I thought you were claiming that 'something must be done', & that liberalism had an answer..
We are your overlords!
All your base are belong to us.
No argument there..
Greed is number one motivator..
You of course noted that I said pretty much the same thing..
True enough.. But does the world want to bear the cost of a authoritarian UN type government capable of dictating mining methods worldwide?
No..
And I don't think the world wants the UN doing it either.. ( Sovereignty issues. )
How else do you two propose to 'clean up' New Guinea?
I don't know about Larry, but I personally have no idea..
Seems to me it's New Guinea's problem..
Enough natives die, maybe some of them will take matters into their own hands..
If they haven't become addicted to government handouts, submitted to culture shock, or died from alcoholism or drug abuse.. ( that's the OTHER "toxic waste" that gets little attention.. I mean, besides the blood poisoning, the birth defects, cancer, tumors, you know, the "usual" stuff..)
I don't want us to be the world's policeman any more than anyone else does..
That wasn't my point here, and to be honest, 9 times out of 10, ( 99 out of 100 ) I would probably disagree with Larry.. ( on politics and stuff )
But Larry's point was right.
Gold mining = toxic waste..
Fierce Allegiance challenged that assertion, and as much as I hate agreeing with a liberal, I knew Larry was right..
Sorry, my freind.. It's not just "mud"..
They are called "tailings", and unless they are properly treated, stuff like I pointed out before remains in the tailings..
Trust me on this..
I have an Uncle that lives on an old mining site in Colorado..
He processes tailings for the leftover gold..
Here in the U.S., stringent regulations requires that he treat the tailings after extraction with the nitric and hydrogen peroxide.. ( It precipitates the toxic metals and neutralizes the chemicals producing water.. no "toxic" waste is ever emitted as waste product.. )
He makes a pretty good living at it, but he's a mining engineer and a chemist and knows what he's doing..
But Papua is not the U.S. ..
Same regulations do not apply..
Pollution measurements taken off the coast show toxic metals at 4 times the legal limit.. ( and that's New Guinea's limit, not U.S. limits.. )
People on the coast are having medical problems..
You can just guess what problems the natives along the river are having..
( well, you don't have to.. I listed some of them in another post.. )
So how does putting dirt in a stream in Indonesia make anyone convert to islam? (islam = terrorist. While there are some terrorists that are not islamic, most are)
Secondly. If they are already islamic then they already hate us so who cares if we offend them.
That cleansing might include all of humanity...and the process could be drawn-out and very, very painful.
Oh my goodness. There's dirt in the river! We're all gonna DIE!
No. That's intelligent. From tiny acorns giant oaks do grow. And the signs and trends are no longer tiny.
What are you talking about? So a giant oak grows in indonesia. Who cares. Cut it down and use the wood. (old growth forest makes the best lumber)
But Larry's point was right.
Gold mining = toxic waste..
-- I knew Larry was right..
People eating = toxic waste..
-- Does that make larry right about 'liberal' government control over individuals?
Several things you guys need to know.
There ARE natives in the area. Granted the population density of Papua isn't large especially compared with places like Java or Bali. But there ARE locals and they DO care about their land. To just dismiss them is to make a tragic mistake.
While many people groups living in Papua are still in the stone age, many others are also trying to adapt to the 21st century. It is very strange and challenging to them.
The locals get their news from Antara, Kompas and other newspapers. I have seen huts with satellite connections and they get news from CNN International, the BBC and TVRI (Televisis Indonesia). Many have internet connections through Telkom and Wasantara.
The mine is run by Freeport, the Indonesian government and does hire locals. It has put locals to work and has changed and even improved their lives. That cannot be denied.
And lastly, the locals do know about UOx42 and they snicker. They also know about President George Bush and they think he's wonderful. They like Americans (and our dollars) very much.
There aren't many workable answers to this one. A lot of what that article said is correct. It was slanted against the US and Freeport and did not propose any solutions.
That's right. But I am and I do care.
What's "pristine" about a muddy river in an infested jungle?
Nobody is there or ever wants to be. The country would kill a lone man inside of a week.
Jungle has grown over mountains of molten lava. Why would anybody think a little mud is going to stop it?
You are wrong when you say "nobody is there." There are people there. There are locals from that area there.
You are wrong when you say "nobody wants to be [there]." It is a beautiful country. It is rich in natural resources and the flora is truly wonderful. There are gorgeous hibiscus and orchids all over the place.
And you are wrong when you say "jungle over molten lava." A lot of those mountains are folded-mountains, formed when the land pushed up together against fault lines. Even so, the land is very, very fertile.
From the Stone Age to satellite communications in 40 years. I had no idea it was happening so fast.
The mine is run by Freeport, the Indonesian government and does hire locals. It has put locals to work and has changed and even improved their lives. That cannot be denied
It can be partially denied.
I saw the same thing in Guatemala in the early '70s. Sure, some of the locals benefitted from jobs, education, health care. But factory work displaced village farming. The psychological cost was tremendous. You could see it in the way the people stood, the way they looked, the way they acted. And the transition was forced. There's always a price in blood to be paid for that.
I know men who have worked for Freeport. It has enabled them to purchase medicines and better food for their families. It has encouraged them to live in better conditions and to plan for the future. It has encouraged them to seek better education.
I cannot dispute that the percentage of profit which goes back to the locals is very small. I don't have the figures with me. I cannot dispute that the locals are on the very bottom rung of the "social ladder" in the area. But overall, IMO, the mining operation has brought about a higher standard of living than would be currently enjoyed if it were not there.
wonderful.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.