Posted on 03/03/2006 12:56:32 PM PST by kiriath_jearim
Concealed gun bill worries police
By Micah Sturr
Boomerang Staff Writer
Today, to carry a concealed gun in Laramie, you need to apply for a permit. If House Bill 78, which has passed the house and is currently in the senate, becomes law, you could carry without a permit — if you are a Wyoming resident 21 or older who can legally own a gun, are physically able to safely handle the gun and have not been committed to a facility for drug or alcohol abuse in the past six years. You would also have to inform police that you are armed if you are stopped.
Laramie’s police brass is hoping that this notification won’t be necessary, that the bill itself will die before becoming law.
“It’s not a healthy piece of legislation. It doesn’t do anything to advance public safety,” Laramie Police Chief Bob Deutsch said. “Our point of view does count, because we’re the people who are on the firing line with weapons out on the street.”
University of Wyoming Police Chief Tim Banks agreed with Deutsch and expressed concern that allowing people to carry firearms without permits would create an impossible enforcement environment for officers and open the door for problems that are successfully addressed by the current permit system.
“I support the right to possess firearms, but I think the restrictions that go along with the permit system are not unreasonable,” Banks said.
If police stop someone who is armed, it is impossible to determine if that person is carrying legally under HB 78, UWPD Captain and Rep. Kevin White, R-Laramie, said. White opposed the bill in the house. For example, concealed weapons carriers are required to have lived in Wyoming six months, and a police officer in the middle of the night would be hard-pressed to determine how long someone has lived in the state. Similarly, a person’s mental health history isn’t available during a routine stop, and police would be forced to let people who are carrying illegally go because of the unenforceability of the bill, Banks said.
Deutsch said, “They could go out and buy a gun and strap it to their hip, and then if something comes up that would have prevented them from carrying a gun, we deal with it in reverse.”
Deutsch also worries that if there is an increase in people carrying concealed weapons his officers will have to shift away from friendly public service to “edgy vigilance.”
The bill would allow police officers to take and secure a citizen’s concealed weapon for the duration of the interaction between the two. Currently, concealed weapons permit holders have been vetted, and police are less likely to handle a citizen’s firearm now than they would be if unchecked people had concealed weapons, Deutsch said.
He doesn’t want a cool, adversarial relationship between police and citizens, Deutsch said, but officers always have to err on the side of safety. And more concealed weapons mean more potential for harm to officers.
That argument is one that supporters of the bill find puzzling. Police should always approach suspects assuming that they are armed and exercise the utmost safety, Kermit Brown, R-Laramie, said. Brown supported the bill in the house.
“Is the assumption that if you don’t have a permit, you don’t have a weapon?” Brown asked. “I don’t think this will change the pattern of gun ownership.”
Laramie insurance broker and NRA member Pete Hegg agreed, but added that the issue is a Constitutional one of fundamental freedoms and is larger than the bureaucracy.
“If they’re training the officers correctly now, they should act like a person has a weapon on them anyway,” Hegg said. “Public safety is a concern, but you can go back to that old saw that if you’re going to give up freedom for a little bit of security, you don’t deserve either. How much freedom are you going to give up?”
The people already have the right to carry weapons, concealed or openly, as guaranteed by the Second Amendment, Hegg said. He would prefer to see gun control laws like the permit requirement eliminated, instead of new gun laws enacted, Hegg said.
Jane Warren, D-Laramie, opposed the bill and said that permitting is a necessity in all facets of public life. Warren also applauded the current system’s requirement that permit holders pass a gun safety course.
“If you want to build a room on your house, you need a permit. If you want to drive a car, you need a license. If you want to get married, you need a license. If you want to teach a class in school, you need certification,” Warren said. “It’s not broken. The (permit) system is working. It’s kind of a hassle, but what isn’t?”
Banks said the current permitting system has the auxiliary benefit of giving people a printed reminder of where they are not allowed to take their concealed weapons. He said he is concerned that if people don’t have to go through the permitting process, they may not know, or may simply forget that they are prohibited from taking a concealed weapon to places like schools, courts and churches. In Banks’ jurisdiction — all University of Wyoming property — concealed weapons are prohibited even to permit holders and would remain so under HB 78. Banks can approve individual requests for concealed weapons but never has, he said.
Law enforcement also expressed concern that the bill doesn’t prohibit carrying a concealed weapon and drinking alcohol. White tried to add a revision that would have added drinking to the criteria that precludes carrying a concealed weapon, but the language was defeated in the house.
“Armed and drunk does not sound like a good idea,” Banks said. “In law enforcement, you see that kind of impaired judgment and what it can cause without guns.”
Brown opposed adding language that would prohibit people from drinking while carrying a concealed weapon because it was too vague. Brown said he didn’t want to punish law-abiding citizens for two legal activities. He obviously doesn’t want stumbling drunks packing, but was concerned that, because there were no measurable guidelines for when a person could carry, people who had a drink 12 hours before carrying a concealed weapon or someone who had a beer but wasn’t drunk would be violating the law.
Brown said he is most concerned with securing the rights of law-abiding citizens, and the current permitting process creates an unnecessary barrier for lawful gun owners while doing little to hinder law breakers and reckless gun owners.
“I don’t think the people who are mentally ill or habitually drunk are the ones going out and applying for a permit, getting denied and then not just carrying a gun anyway,” Brown said.
The current process potentially puts law-abiding citizens at risk because they can’t carry a weapon when they feel they need one, whereas unlawful people will carry regardless, Brown said.
“As soon as they get an efficient way of taking guns from the people who shouldn’t have them, I’ll reconsider my position. Until then, I’m not going to punish law-abiding citizens and put them at a disadvantage compared to the people who are willing to break the law,” Brown said.
Brown added that Wyoming has a culture of responsible gun ownership that makes some of the permitting requirements redundant.
Banks, Deutsch and White all said that they support the basic right of people to own and bear arms, but said the law enforcement and public safety problems that the bill may spawn outweigh the benefit, especially in Wyoming, where getting a concealed weapons permit is simple for law-abiding gun owners.
Deutsch said he has approved up to 10 permits a week in his capacity as police chief and has only rejected three in his tenure with the LPD. The three he turned down were from people with patterns of criminal behavior like drunken driving, assaults and domestic violence — people he said he’s glad his officers now have less likelihood of confronting armed.
“All law enforcement agree that people should be able to carry a firearm and protect their property and safety if they feel the need,” White said.
“It is very easy to get a concealed weapons permit in Wyoming right now, as compared to other states,” Deutsch said.
Er yeah... It is SOOOO much safer and healthier being a disarmed civilian when an actual bad guy decides to commit a crime on you.
Effing moron. Just trying to cover his own political arse. The hell with Civil Rights and annoying things like "Constitutions" and "Bill of Rights".
"He doesn’t want a cool, adversarial relationship between police and citizens."
Sounds like you crossed that line a long time ago sir.
The people who are the types to shoot you during a traffic stop aren't waiting around for a concealed-carry permit. If you aren't in "edgy vigilance" mode already, you're crazy.
So? What's the problem? Damned liberal hoplophobes!
This is Idiocy! Someone's gonna get shot because a cop is fumbling around with their weapon. That part of the bill must be strickened. Pure Idiocy!
Does it worry the police on the street or the Police Chiefs who are not covered by civil service and spout the BS the city leaders tell them to or they are relieved of their chiefy duties. The chief speaks for the city and generally not for the guys that do the work. They don't matter.
A lot of the misinformation about gun owners/carriers needs to be shown up as the utter crap that it is. If you can carry in your State, do so. Even if it is only openly, on Sunday, between 2-3 PM. Maybe especially then. The more people who exercise their Right, the harder it will be for them to spread lies about us.
Amen x 1000. Why are these stories always reflective of panic on the part of the desk jockeys?
Why is the obvious question never asked: if criminals already ignore the law what difference will any law make to them?
Why isn't another obvious question asked: since the police can't be everywhere all the time, what about the potential deterrent to crime a (responsible) armed populace engenders?
Damn, even in WY cities? Are there any Police Chiefs that aren't Libs or who have not been corrupted?
This pisses me off - I never thought I would hear a cop in WY say this.
Convince the sucker moms that a holstered pistol is a threat to every living thing in a 10 kilometer radius, even if unloaded, and you can get them to support any candidate that promises to "do something about it".
well gorsh
I totally forgot about my rights
yeah right give me a break
the demoncrats want you to give up your guns
they want you to beleive that the governement will protect you.
a police officer is not going to protect you
that is not his duty
his duty is to "uphold the law"
Sounds like a Vermont on the western front.
Traffic tickets
To arrest people and solve crime, not to prevent crime
Hwy...one big drawback in the future is...
The national reciprocal carry bills that have a chance exclude states like Vermont that allow permitless carry.
Wyoming might become a second state the the national carry exempts.
Maybe socialism IS the answer - lots of promises, lots of politicians, no results and no accountability.
In the years since Alaska's Concealed Handgun Permit began, it has made no difference whatsoever besides eliminating confusion between local municipalities.
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