Britain falls out of love with America [Survey for The Telegraph.]

The Telegraph (Britain) ^ | 03JUL06 | Anthony King

[Scotsman will be Free]

That was high school slang 35 years ago, here, fella. Guess you don't know as much as you think. Secondly, the spelling for the word is "their" showing possession or ownership as in "their late 40s or 50s."
Thirdly, I know plenty about your country. I truly wish it weren't so, but you folks have simply lost it. I would love to see your people get their nerve back, and perhaps some day it will happen, but I doubt it.

[Tribune7]

I'm becoming more and more embarrassed about the anti-European remarks of some.

I don't mind zingers from either direction and I imagine I've given a few -- albeit mostly at Canadians :-) -- but this crap has gone way too far. I think some pretty good people from Europe have stopped posting here, which is our loss.

[Red6]

Well,

Germany has a huge Muslim population which even Schroeder pandered to in the last elections appearing on their Turkish TV channel. France was covered with riots not to long ago and when they participated in the 1991 Desert Storm campaign they did experience a wave of bombings. I think few can forget the whole headscarf issue in France. Hell, in France alone the Muslim voting block is 10%.

The policy maker in Germany and France SURELY takes the Muslim into consideration. Denying this is more of your Teutonic Superman myth.

http://www.destatis.de/themen/d/thm_bevoelk.php

The German politician at the highest levels cares so little about the Muslim vote that he panders to them. Tell your “Maerchen” to someone who believes it.

[familyop]

"The policy maker in Germany and France SURELY takes the Muslim into consideration."

...generally, for the most part, yes. So do UK politicians, for the most part, and Italian politicians even more so.

"Denying this is more of your Teutonic Superman myth."

But that's irrelevant, personal, hurtful and uncalled-for, IMO.

[Red6]

The UK still has a national identity and a cultural identity, NEITHER which Germans have. The Germans “want” to subordinate themselves to a Pan-European and supra national identity. There is a reason why Great Britain still uses their currency.

The Brits still have a "will to fight", which the Germans also lack. Whether Libya (Germany appeased), Balkans, Iraq, or even today Iran, the Germans will throw their hands skywards before the notion of military action is even invoked. FACT- Germany buys hostages in Iraq free.

The Germans are done! They are on histories butchering block waiting to die. Since they today live in a safe and secure environment they will just continue erode away and face no sudden destruction. They are fading away into obscurity.

Great Britain's close ties to the US are a nuisance to someone such as him. It does not compute in his pan-European world. He is a national socialist, not a conservative which he proclaims to be. Conservatives do not share his views of centralization, amassing power and federal state powers. Any story that shows hostility towards the US he will flock to. In reality he would "like to see" a Great Britain less tied to the US.

Reality however is the contrary. Great Britain is more closely aligned with the US than with "old Europe". The UK fills and operates some of the highest positions in the Echelon systems and the NSA. Our intel communities are completely interwoven. The JSF is a US/UK development......... The US and Britain share a special relationship that frankly no other European nation is part in. That bothers him. In his mind the UK needs to be EU.

[WLR]

BTT

[Atlantic Bridge]

Great Britain's close ties to the US are a nuisance to someone such as him. It does not compute in his pan-European world. He is a national socialist, not a conservative which he proclaims to be. Conservatives do not share his views of centralization, amassing power and federal state powers. Any story that shows hostility towards the US he will flock to. In reality he would "like to see" a Great Britain less tied to the US.

You have for sure much more in common with a national socialist than I ever had. Your moronic wish to rule the world, your millitaristic tendency and your weird verbalism are the typical babbling of such kind. Somehow narrow minded, square, provincial and last but not least boring. Like those first real national socialists in the beginning 20ties you have spend most of your life in a lonely barrack far away from any reality and normal live unable to understand that the world is completely different to your simple black and white scheme. Therefore - you belong to the kind of dumb people the national socialist movement recruited its staunchest supporters from. In difference to you I had the "privilege" (sarcasm) to meet some real nazis in my life. You see - I know exactly what I am talking about.

Usually I am polite enough not to say such verities since I like to leave offensive stuff to silly people like you, who run out of arguments very fast. BUT - you called me a nazi. That makes things different.

Anyway I would never say that you are a real nazi although you share quite a few characteristics with them and I give you the chance to excuse your awkward and moronic reproaches. Just to your information - National Socialists are people who stick to this ideology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

Just to put some things straight for all other people here:

1. I hate nazis.

2. I hate national socialism.

3. I hate any moronic kind of nationalism. (in difference to non-agressive positive national pride)

furthermore

4. I support freedom with all my means.

5. I support capitalism (I am the owner of 2 businesses).

6. I support the trans-atlantic friendship.

last but not least:

7. I will never ever betray my country.

In your nameless hate towards my nation your have the obsessive idea that people like me should disavow Germany. It is true that we Germans have a different system than you have and we got much to improve (just like you). After all we are a democracy were the voters have the decisive power. Therefore our politicians have to respect the will of their voters. This is the key reason why some radical changes are not possible in Germany. BTW - I prefer to live in my "soziale Marktwirtschaft" which is part socialist compared to live in a Pinocet-like dictatorship that gives me better economic possibilities but no personal freedom and no chance to participate. It is simply wrong that politicians show strength by ignoring their public. I do not want to live in a country that is ruled that way. Therefore - I will never ever do any treason although my system and nation is not perfect. Just again to put some things straight: Personally I support more capitalism and a better democratic system in Germany. I do not believe in gouvernmental leadership but into the power of the people. I dismiss the inflated welfare state but I will not change it with moronic means (by force, senseless fundamental opposition etc.). I am pro flat tax and against any red tape. My personal political conviction is close to the FDP, the probably most capitalist party in Germany. When I was younger I was a member in the CDU, but their concept of freedom is absolutely not compatible to my own belief. Due to my personal experience in many different countries I think that Switzerland has the best form of democracy worldwide since there the will of the public is transmitted directly. This is not exactly the ideology of a nazi. Isn't it?

Just one more thing: Please avoid to come into my country again. We do not want people like you with a hostile attitude towards us in Germany. If you should ignore this request just remind yourself that you are not welcome. Me and most of my compatriots will prefer any open-hearted and nice guy from Turkey (you have been stammering something about the muslim flood in Germany) or anywhere else (including America of course - I am NOT anti-American) to you or other people like you that have a cankered attitude towards us.

[Atlantic Bridge]

In his mind the UK needs to be EU.

No. This is a lie. Red6 is a liar. I do not believe that countries like the UK or Poland, who have a strong tendency to go their own way should be integrated deeper into the EU. Furthermore I have really nothing against their good relationship with the United States. Why should I?

It is true that I believe that the countries of central Europe need further integration as long as the democratic premises are given. It is obvious that this will never be the case in those both countries. If we speak about the Benelux, France and Germany things are different.

Beside of that it is true that we Germans have interest into a more integrated Europe since it is obvious that small countries are simply to ineffective. We have lots of benefit from the EU. Our boarders are open, we can settle in every place in Europe, we can work were we want, we have legal security, we have allies we can count on, our money is accepted in all places, we can be sure that the food we bought abroad has a certain quality standard and we make much more business with our neighbours than we ever made before. It is also true that the old agressive German nationalism died in 1945. We have no interest to restore it.

Red6 is among those who have deep respect for the SS because they were such good soldiers (he said that once in a really moronic post). In sharp difference to that I do not care about their heroism since they were simply murderers with no honor to me. I feel quite simular about the old and dangerous Germany of WWI and WWII. If I can change this ghost into a peaceful and more effective part of Europe I have no problem with it. Nevertheless I will stay a German for the rest of my live and I am proud of the achievements of my fathers.

[Red6]

You are a national socialist (Period).

As a typical German you have been programmed to associate a negative connotation with these words. Nonetheless that is what you are. You believe in socialism and you are a nationalist. In France today you have a national socialist in power. They even see themselves as such.

Eat your own words - You support massive subsidies to EADS/Airbus, you support the amassing of power in centralized institutions, you have pan-European visions………. You even admit that you are a socialist, so did the NAZI’s “NATIONAL “””SOZIALISTICHE””” DEUTSCHE ARBEITER PARTEI”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazis

The typical German tries to separate out this minor detail. Most Germans still believe in socialism and support this economic, political and secular way of thinking. Since they embrace this idea of socialism but acknowledge that the NAZI’s were bad they put in a great degree of effort to separate out the detail that NAZI’s TOO were socialists. There is a conscious effort put in to suppress this reality.

I am a “nationalist” NOT a “socialist”. There is a difference. You also support a stronger German military, greater German international involvement etc. The difference is that I want to MINIMIZE government in citizens’ lives, MINIMIZE federal powers, decentralize control, at times compartmentalize where possible and keep the means of production in private hands. We both are nationalists, but I am no socialist.

Example- 1 ½ years ago we debated the dangers of a government owning a large share of the media and it’s influence. You tried to justify this. You tried to rationalize why it’s a good thing that the German government has a large degree of influence in the media within Germany.

There is a HUGE difference between you and I. Never have I heard any questioning of Germany’s absurd position on missile defense, which BTW was nothing but a façade and has even publicly turned 180 degrees. Never have I heard any questioning of Germany’s position on Iraq. From Airbus to Libya (Where a US/BRITISH initiative helped largely solve the problem) you never admit error or are willing to concede to the fact that maybe your position was wrong even if the facts speak against you after the fact.

Example- You tried to tell me that the SPD had no chance prior to the elections in 2005. You told me that the anti-American agenda will not play a major role nor be used. Reality is that Schroeder did almost win and he sure DID play the same game as in 2002. Your own posts my friend look them up in the FreeRepublic.

There is a difference between you and I beyond the realm of the philosophical. While I am a nationalist and a patriot, I do not stubbornly and ideologically hold to a position just because I feel it’s American to do so. You associate being a patriotic German to defending ANY position regardless of how stupid that your country takes. If your “Fuhrer” tells you that missile defense is wrong, you’ll go out babbling that this is wrong no matter what N. Korea, Iran, Iraq, Libya (halted their program) where doing. I’m sure you were a fan of Kyoto as well when your “Fuhrer” told you to think that it was. Germans are a herd Volk. They are a regimented and structured society as reflected even in their education system that brands and railroads human from an early age and people have no issue with.

Truth lies in “Consistency”. You are inconsistent in your positions. You are a National Socialist, like it or not. If nothing else, maybe the Free Republic can help you discover a bit more about yourself. Calling me a liar is no argument, that's a fallacy.

[Red6]

"Red6 is among those who have deep respect for the SS because they were such good soldiers (he said that once in a really moronic post)."

Actually you're a 100% correct. The SS was an elite force. There is a reason why units like 1-37 Armor in Friedberg Germany cherish their SS Panzer Division war trophies.

I use to train a lot in combatives (24 Semester Hours in it) and wrestled in high school. Beating someone in a ring that you know is a strong opponent means something. Crushing an inferior opponent means little. From West Point to the war trophies in our cabinets in Friedberg, we take great pride in having defeated a highly capable enemy which the SS was.

You will also find Imperial Japanese planes, uniforms and weapons in our collections. Respecting the abilities and the tenaciousness of a foe does not equate to supporting their cause. Big difference which I made clear even back then. You are taking things out of context knowingly. What does that make you?

[Atlantic Bridge]

Do you remember that you was stammering something about the thinned out genetic pool of Germany due to the massive loss of "alpha males" in Germany? You have interesting ideological parallels with the Nazis and the SS. They also defined themselves over their "superior" blood. Because of your bad education I had to teach you that war is a perfect (positive) selection in the Darwinistic sense. Those who are unfit to survive usually die and the fittest will survive.

The SS was a criminal, gruesome, evil and violent organisation. Their strange conviction to be something better was their one way ticket to hell. Thanks to the 1-37 Armor in Friedberg! The German society can be happy that it was cleaned from that unworthy BS (as long as we speak about the SS members that were convinced Nazis).

Good combat training doesn't nessecarily mean that you are among those that are able to survive and pass their genetic code. Tyrannosaurus rex was for sure a good fighter, but he became as extinct as Himmlers "blood fraternity" is.

If you share the idea of heritage by good or bad blood and if you find respect for such moronic clowns like the SS you have adopted the nationalist ideology of the nazis. Maybe you are no socialist then, but you are as evil and dumb as your buddies from the SS were. Pure scum.

[Atlantic Bridge]

You are a national socialist (Period).

Well I am among those on the old continent that are fascinated by the idea of a "Europe of the regions". That means that Europe is splitted into federal states (Bundesländer) that have the important power and that only such things like defense, foreign policy and constitutional legislation are centralized by a federal gouvernment. That would mean that Germany as a state would become meaningless although I would understand myself as being a "German". That has for sure nothing to do with being nationalistic in the sense of being a nazi.

As a typical German you have been programmed to associate a negative connotation with these words.

Are you really that idiotic or is this just a joke? Maybe you better read something about national socialism. Your education does not seem to be the best (Do you guys get your "Meister der besonderen Art" - MBA that easy in the States?).

“””SOZIALISTICHE””

it is written "SOZIALISTISCHE"

BTW - You have no idea about the "socialism" of the nazis and you have no idea about socialism anyway. To compare their program with my ideas about economy is not just ridicolous, it is a form of cretinism. It is senseless to explain that to you since your lack all nessecary information to understand. Just read some books about nazism and take the time to read Marx. Then you will understand that the contemporary German "soziale Marktwirtschaft" has nothing to do with nazism or communism.

You also support a stronger German military, greater German international involvement etc

No that is wrong. I support better possibilities to sell German goods on this planet and I am interested that my country acts helpful in international matters without taking the lead. I dismiss the idea of our soldiers fighting in every shi*hole around this planet.

There is a HUGE difference between you and I. Never have I heard any questioning of Germany’s absurd position on missile defense, which BTW was nothing but a façade and has even publicly turned 180 degrees. Never have I heard any questioning of Germany’s position on Iraq. From Airbus to Libya (Where a US/BRITISH initiative helped largely solve the problem) you never admit error or are willing to concede to the fact that maybe your position was wrong even if the facts speak against you after the fact.

Of course Germany made some false decisions. That is nothing new. But to tell you the bitter truth - they are not that different in that question from most other governments on that planet.

Example- You tried to tell me that the SPD had no chance prior to the elections in 2005. You told me that the anti-American agenda will not play a major role nor be used. Reality is that Schroeder did almost win and he sure DID play the same game as in 2002. Your own posts my friend look them up in the FreeRepublic.

America/Iraq did not play a role anymore in the German elections in 2005. It was clear that Merkel would never join into your "coalition of the willing" since she is facing a overwelming majority of her own voters that are against it. Schroeder lost his foreign policy issue. The thing is that with Merkel's leadership Germany acts helpful again and is not a destructive factor anymore. The outcome of the elections is that bad because most of my German compatriots tend to stick to our recent form of "socialism". They do not want to change the welfare system. This is of course a major problem. Anyway America and Iraq was irrelevant in that election.

There is a difference between you and I beyond the realm of the philosophical. While I am a nationalist and a patriot, I do not stubbornly and ideologically hold to a position just because I feel it’s American to do so. You associate being a patriotic German to defending ANY position regardless of how stupid that your country takes. If your “Fuhrer” tells you that missile defense is wrong, you’ll go out babbling that this is wrong no matter what N. Korea, Iran, Iraq, Libya (halted their program) where doing. I’m sure you were a fan of Kyoto as well when your “Fuhrer” told you to think that it was. Germans are a herd Volk. They are a regimented and structured society as reflected even in their education system that brands and railroads human from an early age and people have no issue with.

Well the difference between us both is that you are a bigot. I have better to do than to answer this BS.

[Red6]

German political comments of 2005:

http://www.dmko.info/schwanitz.JPG

Who can forget the SPD chair referring to the US has the “Locust Capitalists” in the 2005 elections?

Who can forget Schroeder actually arguing that an embargo and military action is not necessary already in 2005 during the elections?

You are out of arguments. You have nothing to argue with. Call me a bigot all you want. That still remains a fallacy.

Or internationally: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4149090.stm Do you remember Iran and how Schroeder attacked the US policy there? Of course not!

Yes, attacking the US was a pillar of Schroeders 2005 reelection campaign as well.

--

Of course you can not see the similarities between Hitler, Mao, Stalin or even Saddam. Fact is, centralization and amassing of power is USUALLY a bad thing in the long run.

Did you know that your whole “SOCIAL” concept of Kindergeld was a NAZI idea?

Tear down all the Swastikas you want, the basic centralist thought is still there. Tell me – does Germany have single uniform laws or is it like in the US highly differentiated between the states? What power does a German governor “really” have? What was YOUR position on Airbus and subsidies?

You are a national socialist, even though that idea is appalling to you since from birth you were told NAZI’s are bad. You think because you say NAZI’s are bad, you have a special right to know what a NAZI is. Well, in the end, many of the social programs you have EVEN TODAY were creations of this NAZI regime which you must deny was socialist since you believe in a socialist system yet are told that NAZI’s are bad.

Tell us – What did 1 May become under Hitler? A holiday? Gee figure. The NAZI’s made Mayday a

What happened to the Körperschaftssteuer under the NAZI’s? It went up. After all, he was going to tax the rich to finance the poor and all his SOCIAL programs.

I understand your “conflict” with the reality that the NAZI’s where socialists in name AND practice. But I am no psychiatrist, so I’m not the right “Ansprechpartner” to fix your issue on that matter.

--

Pretending that Iran, Iraq, Libya, N Korea, East Timor are no German problems is not honest. It’s dodging responsibility and in the long run will not work well. The significant difference between Merkel and her predecessor is that Germany is today an ASSET reference Iran and under Schroeder we could have expected Germany to be a LIABILITY.

Germany will not be a major player in Iran, but at least they can do what they can to help vs. falling into the back of those taking action. Identifying threats, building missile shields and playing cheap shot political games with geopolitical issues as with Ira OR Iraq is not honorable, moral or a sign of strength which it was presented as to the German public. Schroeder’s “Der Deutsche Weg” was EXACTLY that and people like you walked right into his arms with this sort of rhetoric.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1022512,00.html (A link to explain your “Deutscher weg”) Of course as presented by the German state run media outlet Deutsche Welle.

[familyop]

What hogwash! Why do you continue to call Atlantic Bridge a Nazi? He bases his nationalism only on what he perceives as good deeds done by Germany (although I don't agree with all of those deeds). That's the only good kind of nationalism! Nationalism based solely on symbols and/or ethnic identity is wrong, but Atlantic Bridge is not promoting that.

There are now very few neo-Nazis in Germany, and they're not popular there at all. There are more neo-Nazis in our own USA and in each of several other European nations than in Germany.

There are quite a few errors in your arguments. For one Germany is participating in an anti-ballistic missile defense project (PAC-3)--something that other western European nations are not doing because of their hatred against the USA. Germany doesn't have many troops to send to any conflict. Britain will not be sending any to Iran (Blair's recent announcement). And all western European nations (including Britain) are more socialist than ours.

And Germany is helping to isolate Iran and clear the way for sanctions. That's a good deed--something that Italy, Spain and others are not helping with.

Things change. Keep an eye on the Iran developments, if you want to learn more about changes in the coalition. After military force happens there, some of the nations involved will surprise many.

[familyop]

Also, BTW, Schroeder is no longer very well liked by most Germans.

[familyop]

If you want to know about anti-American attitude in a western European country, have a look at the following.

Italian spies arrested, Americans sought for kidnap
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1661106/posts

Berlusconi protests over CIA ‘kidnap'
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1434969/posts

Italy Demands 'Full Respect' From U.S. Over Terror Suspect's Seizure
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1434975/posts

I warned Bush about Iraq: Italy's PM
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1512263/posts

20,000 in farewell to Italian 'martyr'
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1358260/posts

Freed Italians eye return to Iraq [Italy paid a ransom!]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1231061/posts

Sgrena's 'truth' doesn't ring true
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1361764/posts

Italy Plans to Charge GI in Iraq Death
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1559896/posts

IRAN: D'ALEMA, SANCTIONS WOULD ESPECIALLY DAMAGE ITALY
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1639485/posts

ITALY: MUSLIM BODY TO DRAFT CITIZENSHIP REFORM PLAN FOR CABINET
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1649578/posts

[Red6]

I won't respond to people who do not read my posts and give half baked replies based on perceived assumptions of what I said.

Read, then post.

[ladyinred]

So sad, but what can we expect with the world media bashing him daily for all of these years? I wish they could know the truth, but can't see a way to get past the MSM to wake them up!

[JRjr]

I worked in the UK in 1988, and the toughest part about traveling to London was finding a watch I could set back 25 years. Europeans are a jealous lot. We sneeze, they catch a cold, or worse. If Britain had had good managers they would still be an empire. They let half the world slip through their greedy fingers. Wherever they've been, they raped the country and left absolutely no infrastructure when they departed.

Boo Hoo. I, as well, won't be losing much sleep over this silly poll.

[familyop]

GERMANY READY TO SIGN ISRAELI SUB DEAL
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1661670/posts