Mark Steyn: Before the white man came? War

Macleans ^ | 07/18/06 | Mark Steyn

[dennisw]

nttt

[hinckley buzzard]

an eye-opening dissection of the "noble savage" myth.

It is a sign of societal regression and devolution that this subject requires elucidation. Indeed the very phrase "noble savage," advanced by the pervert Rousseau, has been used ironically for over two hundred years by normal adults who have in fact always known better.

[dennisw]

Many of our Indian tribes didn't go to war over resources and hunting grounds. Very often the wars were fought for warrior's honor (bragging rights) and to capture the enemy's women for sex slaves and to make babies for YOUR TRIBE. Larger the tribe the stronger you are to conquer other tribes

[hinckley buzzard]

an eye-opening dissection of the "noble savage" myth.

It is a sign of societal regression and devolution that this subject requires elucidation. Indeed the very phrase "noble savage," advanced by the pervert Rousseau, has been used ironically for over two hundred years by normal adults who have in fact always known better.

[balrog666]

Steyn brilliantly exhibits how so-called modern scientists have drank the Kool-Aide.

On the contrary, scientists haven't forgotten history, that's for the ignorant and the stupid, as illustrated by the MSM.

Clearly, considering the propensity of human beings to shape their interpretation of evidence based on their personal worldview, one must consider ones associations more thoroughly.

Again, you are misinterpreting journalistic interpretation with history.

Being that Steyn is so brilliant in his ability to torture the logic of others, I am glad he is a believer in Jesus Christ.

Funny that there's no evidence of that in the article. Nor did he mention any Jesus, Christ or otherwise ...

Why do you ping me again?

[Fester Chugabrew]

By the sound of Western percussion it sounds like we'll kick third world butt.

[tpaine]

V-man:

In what is now North Dakota, the Mandan raised chickens.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Restorer:

I suspect you are wrong about the Mandans raising chickens. Possibly when Lewis and Clark arrived, not before Columbus, as I believe chickens are native to SE Asia, not South Dakota.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Perhaps the vikings brought chickens with them from Greenland.

[Vigilanteman]

The scientific name of the chicken is galus domesticus, descendents of the jungle fowl galus galus from Southeast Asia.

A logical route of import into the North American continent would be over the fabled Beiring Straight land bridge from Asia.

While the Mandans are perhaps the most northernmost tribe known to raise chickens, they were also raised by tribes in what is now Latin America. The Inca even developed their own breed, the Aracuna who lay pastel colored eggs, generally light blue or green.

Therefore, I think it is a stretch to say the Mandan didn't get the chickens until about the time of Lewis and Clark. French Canadian trader Sieur de la Verendrye in 1738 visited the Mandan and recorded many of their agricultural practices, including poultry, in his dairy. One crackpot theory at the time even claimed the Mandan were the descendants Prince Madoc and his followers who had emigrated to America from Wales circa 1170 because they were so civilized (i.e. like white people).

As a boy growing up in North Dakota, I can remember reading parts of la Verendrye's dairy (translated into English, of course) getting a real chuckle at how advanced these "savages" were. One particular passage about how they huddled together naked under buffalo robes in their communal earth lodges to keep warm during the winter was particularly memorable. la Verendrye pointed this out, it seemed, not for the interest but to prove that despite all, they weren't quite as advanced as Europeans after all.

Restorer's point that disease immunities were not well developed in native peoples is, I think, quite valid. The gene pools were definitely limited by tribalism, a relatively sparse population and a rural lifestyle which offered limited opportunities to stir the gene pool.

[grey_whiskers]

The image of the noble savage lives on!

"I'll have the roast duck with the mango salsa."

Cheers!

[tpaine]

While the Mandans are perhaps the most northernmost tribe known to raise chickens, they were also raised by tribes in what is now Latin America.

Sorry, but I just can't find any mention of pre-colombian chickens in the Americas. Do you have any links or sources prior to 1700?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks alwaysconservative.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.

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[elli1]

[Araucana] originated from Chile, Pockets of Araucana can
still be seen in the Amazon Basin and in isolated areas in the high fincas of the
Andes Range. The usual colours are Lavender, Blue, Black/Red, Silver Duckwing,
Golden Duckwing, Blue/Red, Pyle, Crele, Spangled, Cuckoo, Black and White. Also
some non-standard colours. It is a prolific layer of good-sized eggs and a very hardy
bird. When the Spaniards arrived in South America, bringing with them their poultry,
they found that the indigenous Indians had their own breeds which soon crossed
with the imported stock.

http://www.araucana.org.uk/page3.html

[Knitting A Conundrum]

We learned the need to be ready to wage war from the native peoples who basically fought, from time, to time, total warfare. They taught the settlers a type of warfare that was not done back in Europe...

Any time you run into a culture that thinks the proper behavior warfare is either the the capture of enemy women and children past the infant stage to enslave/adopt them into the tribe or to outright kill them all, killing of infants, while adult male military captives were expected to show how brave and stoic they were while their enemy's women tortured them to death when you are used to following a fairly ritualized form of warfare that mostly let non-combatants alone, you are going to have some pretty quick adaptation of techniques to protect yourself and your loved ones.

These are the lessons our early settler forefathers learned. It colored, and still colors at least some of our concept about how to use force.

[xcamel]

Actually, they have this quite backwards. The Algonkin preyed on the Iroquois, the Mohawk, and the Seneca for nearly 2000 years, and other than the Ojibway, are considered one of the oldest genetic lines in North America.

Otherwise, the story is dead on.

[alwaysconservative]

You are most welcome! It is posts and threads like these that make me proud to be a FReeper.

[ThanhPhero]

they were decimated

They were NOT DECIMATED! far more than 10% of them were carried off by the new diseases. Decimation is the destruction or killing of ten per cent. That is ten out of a hundred. Ninety remain. The Reds practiced decimation back in their Civil War in Russia on units that failed an objective or retreated. An offending unit was formed up, counted off, and every tenth man was shot.

[IronJack]

No. Decimation is NOT the elimination of 10 percent. That's the ORIGIN of the word, but it has expanded beyond its orginal meaning. I can be as much a language purist as anyone, but in this case, it's a lost cause. Nowadays, and for a considerable period of time, "decimation" has come to mean "great destruction" or "marked reduction in numbers." Only vestigially does it mean "a reduction by 1 in 10."

Now don't get me started on "medium/media" ...

[sima_yi]

The Algonkin preyed on the Iroquois...

Thanks, I didn't know that anyone, ever, beat up on the Iroquois.

On the other hand, I can no longer console myself by thinking that if we (Huron) were defeated, it was by the absolute baddest bunch in the forest.

[tarheelswamprat]

re: The Sawny Beane family

There is also an interesting account of this family in "The Bedside Book of Bastards" (Hardcover) by historian Dorothy M Johnson, who also wrote the stories on which the movies "Jeremiah Johnson" and "A Man Called Horse" were based. The book is out of print, I believe, but can still be found through Amazon.com

It's a collection of historical accounts of some of history's most notorious "badasses" (/grin), but told with a humorous twist and a sort of Paul Harvey "rest of the story" flair. It also makes a great coffee table book when priggish guests or relatives drop by!