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To: MineralMan
Personally, I think it is a mistake for folks to try to concoct evidence of the existence of deities. The very nature of a supernatural entity means that there is no physical evidence of it.

First...No offense, but because you are an atheist, you are starting from a place where you believe there is no deity, so why would you believe there is evidence of a deity? You wouldn't, so your point--though it is honestly advocated, I'm sure--is no more illuminating than when a liberal says there's no such thing as an economic recovery caused by tax cuts. He doesn't believe in trickle-down effects or that anything benefiting the rich could be good for the rest of us, so he's not going to believe there can be solid evidence of those things.

Second, the idea that the supernatural could not leave evidence in the natural world is akin to believing there would never be evidence of ships left on the land. If the supernatural were real, we would only think it was real because we had some sort of contact with it...and contact would be an opportunity for evidence. And if the mission of those supernatural beings was to redeem the natural sphere, there would be even more evidence, just as ships have docks and shipyards to show they exist, because their purpose is wrapped up in contact with the land.

I'll be buying a copy of this latest attempt to prove the existence of a deity. I've already read so many of them that one more won't be too trying.

For you, such a purchase would be a waste of money. I suggest instead that you read More Than A Carpenter by Josh McDowell. Though Carpenter is McDowell's most important book, I'd also suggest the book he wrote with Don Stewart, Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About the Christian Faith.

I see your point that many arguments for God's existence are circular or seem circular to a non-believer. That's why I'm suggesting McDowell's book, because it proves the Resurrection as a historical event. That's like proving there are ships by taking someone on a tour of a shipyard. No circular argument, that! And if it doesn't convince you, then the subject is pretty much closed.

29 posted on 08/01/2006 1:38:24 PM PDT by Mr. Silverback (NewsMax gives aid and comfort to the enemy-- http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1642052/posts)
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To: Mr. Silverback

"For you, such a purchase would be a waste of money. I suggest instead that you read More Than A Carpenter by Josh McDowell. Though Carpenter is McDowell's most important book, I'd also suggest the book he wrote with Don Stewart, Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About the Christian Faith."

You assume I have not read those books. I read both of them years ago. They do not impress. I'm more interested in reading apologetics that are a bit more challenging. Josh writes for a naive audience. I stopped being a target for his arguments way back in the 1960s, although I still read such books when they appear.

I'm sure they're useful for some, but they're pretty simplistic.


35 posted on 08/01/2006 1:53:26 PM PDT by MineralMan (non-evangelical atheist)
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To: Mr. Silverback

'First...No offense, but because you are an atheist, you are starting from a place where you believe there is no deity, so why would you believe there is evidence of a deity? '

Why not? Your reasoning is a little fallacious. An atheist chooses not to believe in God on the basis of the evidence to hand. Very rarely because the atheist is anti-theist. Should further evidence come to light in support of a deity, that belief is, for most atheists including myself, quite amenable to change.

That said, my Anglican upbringing always taught me that faith is faith pure and simple. That people need material evidence to support their faith is surely indicative of an essentialy weakness in their faith?


36 posted on 08/01/2006 1:53:45 PM PDT by Incitatus
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