Posted on 08/21/2006 7:08:42 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk
Israel's leaders do not seem to understand how ruinous its disappointing performance in Lebanon has been to its relationship with America.
At critical moments in the past, Israel has indeed shown its value. In 1970 Israel saved King Hussein and the monarchy of Jordan. In 1982 they shot down 86 MiGs in one week without a single loss, revealing Soviet technological backwardnesss.
Hezbollah's unprovoked attack on July 12 gave them our green light to defend themselves; an act of clear self-interest, because America needed a decisive Hezbollah defeat.
Hezbollah is a wholly owned Iranian subsidiary, making Islam a two-churched monster: With al-Qaeda in decline, Iran is on the march. Its nuclear ambitions would secure their power over the Arabs and an absolute deterrent against counteractions by the United States, Israel or any other rival.
The moderate pro-Western Arabs understand this very clearly. Which is why Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan immediately came out against Hezbollah and privately urged the United States to let Israel take down that organization.
The United States went far out on a limb to allow Israel to win, counting on Israel's ability to do the job. It has been disappointed. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has provided unsteady and uncertain leadership. Foolishly relying on air power alone, he denied his generals the ground offensive they wanted, only to reverse himself later.
His search for victory on the cheap has jeopardized not just the Lebanon operation but America's confidence in Israel as well. That confidence -- and the relationship it reinforces -- is as important to Israel's survival as its own army. The tremulous Olmert seems not to have a clue
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
Well it has been since 73 over 30 years ago since they fought a real drag out war
A whole new generation of military leaders etc
Complacency does set in amongst the populace and liberalism takes hold and results in leaders like they have now
I wish conservatives would stop undermining successes in the WOT.
For an entire month, the IDF bombed freely and moved troops freely across Lebanon. The so called "cease fire" guarantees continuous unfettered access by Israel to Hezbollah. Israel continues to attack and contain Hezbollah.
The agreement continues to demonstrate the impotence of France, the UN and our European partners. Iran is railing on US power because we have called the tune here.
Hezbollah has won the destruction of its infrastructure and the deaths of hundres of their fighters. There is no apparent restraint on Israeli military force.
Kofi comments seem to have no visible effect. If conservatives would acknowledge this success for what it is it would further solidify public movment against Hezbollah.
I hold what I guess is a minority view. I.E., that Bush gave the "GO" signal on this operation, expecting that it would be competently handled. The sadder reality seems to be that Olmert and his administration are the equivalent of Jimmy Carter, or JFK, wanting to appear to be tough guys without a clue or a commitment to the military necessities involved.
I also believe that Bush saved Olmert's bacon by calling a halt at just the right moment. Any gains made here are due to GW and Condi Rice, not that left-looney Olmert. All he managed to do ... bottom line ... was lose a lot of tanks, and even more unfortunately, the men in them.
I believe, as I have said before, Bush's move managed to get Olmert back in the locker room with a three-point lead at the half. Quite an accomplishment, but now there's another, tougher half to play.
You can spin this however you want. Israel lost. The conservatives feel that way, Israeli soldiers have SAID IT, the people of Israel have said it. There is no defense here. They lost.
BTTT!!!
That isn't spin, IMO. Maybe it comes from years of being in a military family, maybe it's because I think outside of the box and am willing to look at the big picture. I'm a Conservative, and I do not believe that Israel lost. I think that Israel took a stand, reigned down destruction on Hezbollah, and they aren't done yet.
Yes if they are not done then so be it. If they are done then they lost. The hezzies are stronger than ever.
Sorry lonestar, but I'm afraid your just completely wrong here.
Israel failed at nearly every benchmark it set going into this conflict. They did not win the release of their soldiers, they did not significantly weaken Hizbullah, and they couldn't even stop Hizbullah's rocket attacks on Israel.
Hizbullah comes out of this conflict significantly stronger in the region. Israel emerges considerably weaker. Hizbullah won, Israel lost. There is no point in sugarcoating this. The Lebanese know it. Israeli's know it. Israeli soldiers even know it. Everyone in the region knows it. Israel actually managed to lose an armed conflict to Hizbullah.
The cease-fire was a disaster for Israel and the United States. There is absolutely nothing good about it. The Bush administration completely screwed up by going along with the French on this. Of all the players in this war, Olmert comes off the worst. Israeli's better get rid of this guy soon, because every enemy of Israel in the region smells the stink of weakness emanating from the Israeli government at this moment.
Green light from Bush? Heck, the Israelis got the greenlight from the Saudis.
Reading the threads here over the weeks it appears Olmert specifically avoided an invasion because he feared reoccupation and casualties. His acts might have increased casualties though.
Only at the end did he greenlight an invasion - as the UN already voted on the resolution!!
Next cabinet members were publicly leaking about making gestures to Syria, etc. displaying one delusional weakness after another.
Now complaints come about the UN because peacekeepers fear fighting Hezb. They should. That was Israel's job.
Israel's move to "the Litani" was incomplete, and I read no towns are occupied, just surrounded.
The way Omlette, Tsipi others talked sounded like arguments in Model United Nations.
Most everyone wanted Israel to win. Instead Israel hands its enemies strategic and political victories.
The latest delusion is the "arms embargo" the UN should "enforce" though it's impossible since they are no deployed on the long Syrian border of Lebanon.
There was no possible way for Israel to COMPLETELY disarm Hezbollah in Lebanon unless they were willing to completely destroy it and kill everyone there. City by city, house to house, street to street.... And what would that have done to make Israel any safer? That is, afterall, the end result we pray for, right? Israel's safety? Sure, there are some who say they should have bombed Lebanon off the face of the earth, or nuke 'em all, in order to achieve the COMPLETE disarmament of Hezbollah....but those people are sick and delusional, IMHO.
Also, the "complete disarmament of Hezbollah" is a pipedream. There is no such thing as COMPLETE disarmament of Hezzie's or any other terrorist organization. There will always be terrorists just as there will always be evil in this world.
The Lebanese people need to be convinced that they do NOT need Hezbollah in order to achieve democracy and peace. They need to understand that some of them have been duped into believing that Hezbollah is their protector and that aligning themselves with terrorists will only bring about death and destruction. It'd be hard to convince them if they are all dead, and it'd be hard to convince them if Israel decided to just bomb the hell out of them and kill innocent Lebanese (that Hezzies love to use as "shields").
I give Israel plenty of credit for severely damaging Hezbollah's ability to attack them, for now being able to say, "well, we tried it the UN way" as for the ceasefire and UN troops, and for fighting smart. But Israel didn't jump on that ceasefire, they did what they felt they had to do for as long as they could, and I believe we encouraged it.
God bless Israel and keep her safe. If it was as easy as some here make it out to be, it would have been done a long, long time ago. They are surrounded by enemies, but some of their "neighbors" are at least trying democracy for a change. Support it, don't kill it.
I am somewhat open to limitations of Israel's military effectiveness. I do think much of it is posturing for Netanyahu to take over-- which I fully support. But to pretend that the arab-feeder press should shape our interpretations of military success is a mistake.
The American diplomacy is excellent. I think Bolton and Rice did an excellent job here. Politics is empirical. To what can we compare this. The best comparison is the early 1980s when Reagan risked US marines in Lebanese peacekeeping. America had no response to this direct attack.
Bush let Israel off the leash in this latest effort despite the protests of the UN, France, and the MSM. Olmert could have done more but I do not see it as strengthening Hezbollah and I strongly disagree that this UN agreement is a closed door.
What constraints does it really place on Israel? None.
Its pre approved "occupation." The UN is sanctioning Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon. Take a look at Ahmendidjad's latest screeds about the security council. He knows what the score is.
This current instance is powerfully differentiated from the 1980s. It is more positive.
I also think the web has played a decisive role in substantially de-fanging the Arab stringers. I just don't think some conservatives are standing strong enough against the "we won" propaganda of Hezbollah.
How can we chastise Israel for failing to do a job we should be doing?
Either W should fire some generals in Iraq and get some ass kickers in there, or we should go home. Going home is not an option.
If Israel did all you said she did, AND her kidnapped soldiers were returned alive and well, then Israel won. Or, at least she won some battles and lost some battles (think Bint Jbeil). The war she needs to fight will not be allowed by Israel's weak, compromised politicians, nor by the U.S., nor by the Saudis.
The kidnapped soldiers are not an incidental matter. At the outset, it was stated they WERE the matter. Israel drew a line in the sand, then joined the U.S., France et al in erasing it.
The latest skirmish was good in that it revealed all the players for who they are and what their interests are. The Cedar of Lebanon has been overtaken by a fungal parasite, the Iranian/Syrian Hizb'allah. Yet, the Bush administration intends to "democratize" the Middle East, by nuzzling all the muzzies, and in the process the one true democracy in the region, the one true friend of the U.S., may cease to exist.
I do, however, detect a remarkable resiliency in the Israeli and Jewish people that CANNOT be counted out ever. Their only friend is GOD, and I think they know that.
I must admit I am just as furious as anyone about the fact that Israel's kidnapped soldiers were not part of the deal. I don't understand that, but I sure keep them in my prayers and hope that Israel is still going to find them, or get them released without giving up any terrorists they have in custody. I was the mother of a soldier....'nuf said.
I believe that President Bush is correct in believe that democracy in the Middle East CAN change the mindset of those who live there. I believe that with all my heart. He's not "nuzzling all the muzzies"...that is such a misunderstanding of what he feels our mission should be. President Bush has explained it eloquently. Maybe some folks just aren't listening with their brains instead of their hearts.
For you to say that Israel's only friend is, "God", is either one of the biggest "tall tails" I've ever heard, or a bald-faced lie! If you truly believe that the U.S. was not supporting Israel in this latest war, then you're.....well, terribly misinformed and/or emotionally out of touch with reality.
We lost too.
Steve Centanni is still kidnapped by the damn Pallys, and no one is doing a thing about it.
Gaza City should be a heap of rubble by now.
Where has Israel ever said it has given up on the return of her soldiers. I totally agree on that point. Notice that no one says Hezbollah has failled because its thousands of soldiers have not been released. It had goals. How were they reallized in this "new victory"? I submit they did not win.
Key characteristics of Israeli/ US ongoing victory:
1. Israel explicitly interrupts and confronts the assemblage of the Middle East's fifth largest military force.
2. Israel bombs extensive parts of Hezbollah military infrastructure.
3. Israel kills hundres of Hezbollah fighters.
4. John Bolton unilaterally crushes UN efforts to condemn Israel.
5. Saudis and other major Arab powers condemn Hezbollah. [this is huge]
6. Bush gets G8 members to forego ceasefire talk and embrace Hezbo blame.
7. Bush greenlights one month of unconstrained war on Hezbollah and re-frames Middle East rhetoric around "lasting peace."
8. Bolton Rice accord retains Hezbo blame, Israeli military discretion, 15k force for south Lebanon, first arms embargo ever against Lebanon.
9. Further exposure of UN and European ineptitude for Arab and Lebanese audiences.
10 Emphatic indications that the US alone has the power to call shots around the world
Do I support the complete destruction of Hezbollah? Yes I do. I fail to see how present circumstances prevent or limit Israeli politics from moving in that direction. Can someone explain to me why they perceive a time limit here? Maybe someone really thinks Iran is going to end the world tomorrow.
I do think the present framework is driving democratic publics toward more aggressive action rather than conventional "peace deals."
BREAKING NEWS:
06:49 Minister Eitan: Prepare bomb-shelters for possible confrontation with Iran (Israel Radio)
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