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Substitute "adultery" or "pedophilia" in Mr. Mann's argument and you will see the folly of his argument against the pastor.
1 posted on 09/13/2006 1:09:20 PM PDT by Keli Kilohana
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To: Keli Kilohana

Mr. Mann's rebuttal is easily refuted. But, alas, I am too tired so I will leave to someone else.


2 posted on 09/13/2006 1:12:57 PM PDT by Pete
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To: Keli Kilohana
This guy is just goofy. From one part: "Free speech does not allow a person to yell “FIRE!” in a crowded theater. And free speech does not allow one to speak in a manner that would lead another to discriminate against a class or to feel justified in doing violence to a member of it."

Baloney. The broadness of the implications of his presumption here has no limits. Almost all speech with any substance could be banned based on those rules.

But you are right. There are more than enough examples of logical fallacies in this piece. Acording to him, I could be thrown in the slammer for my tag line...
3 posted on 09/13/2006 1:13:09 PM PDT by RobRoy (Islam is more dangerous to the world now that Naziism was in 1937.)
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To: Keli Kilohana

bump for later


4 posted on 09/13/2006 1:13:14 PM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: Keli Kilohana
And free speech does not allow one to speak in a manner that would lead another to discriminate against a class

a former prosecuting attorney of Summers County

Thank goodness that's 'former'.

If they are born homosexual, why do they work so hard to recruit kids?
5 posted on 09/13/2006 1:22:22 PM PDT by kenth (There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and those who can't.)
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To: Keli Kilohana

"Further, homosexuality does not define what a person does as a gay. The term for the act, with which the pastor should be familiar, is sodomy, derived from the city of sin that God allegedly destroyed. The word homosexuality is defined as a person having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex. A person’s sexual orientation is a characteristic of the person not what the person does."

Huh?


6 posted on 09/13/2006 1:22:41 PM PDT by abishai
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To: Keli Kilohana
Free speech does not allow a person to yell “FIRE!” in a crowded theater.

I guess this moron would just leave the theater and allow everyone else to burn alive. If even if there is not fire it isn't illegal to yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

7 posted on 09/13/2006 1:22:48 PM PDT by Ajnin (I)
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To: Keli Kilohana
to forbid words that incite bigots to beat the hell out of a fag for fun.

What about words that incite bigots to beat the Hell our of Christians for fun? Shouldn't we silence anti-Christians? After all, if we can save one life.....

8 posted on 09/13/2006 1:23:00 PM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: Keli Kilohana
And free speech does not allow one to speak in a manner that would lead another to discriminate against a class or to feel justified in doing violence to a member of it.

Funny, I never came across that amorphous exception to the First Amendment in my Con Law class in law school.

9 posted on 09/13/2006 1:23:08 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: Keli Kilohana
Even the least sensitive of heterosexuals must in a moment of contemplation realize the nightmarish world he has helped to create for gay people.

Heterosexuals did not create this "nightmarish world". It is solely the creation of the gay establishment and all theirs and theirs alone. They can exit it any time they wish...........

10 posted on 09/13/2006 1:24:06 PM PDT by Red Badger (Is Castro dead yet?........)
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To: Keli Kilohana
What a simplistic and ignorant presumption! A gay can no more change his sexual orientation than can a heterosexual change his sexual orientation.

Is this categorically true? I don't think so.

Homosexuals are ten percent of the population around the world and have been from time out of mind.

Unproven and unknowable urban legend.

11 posted on 09/13/2006 1:26:04 PM PDT by Petronski (Living His life abundantly.)
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To: Keli Kilohana

So, if a person is "comfortable" with his sin, and it no longer bothers his conscience, then we must all accept it as morally correct?

Homosexuals have a sexual disorientation; it's as simple as that. Did they ask to be that way? Of course not. But neither did the child molester or alcoholic. It is sad that modern psychologists and liberal theologians seek to normalize abberant sexual behavior rather than help the poor men who are driven to such deviant activities.


12 posted on 09/13/2006 1:27:00 PM PDT by Elpasser
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To: Keli Kilohana
When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, it didn't destroy the sin, he destroyed the sinner. Does that mean he loves the sinner, and hates the sin? Not if they don't repent, and turn from their wicked ways, and ask Christ for forgiveness.

Psalm 1
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
13 posted on 09/13/2006 1:27:22 PM PDT by HisKingdomWillAbolishSinDeath (Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.)
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To: Keli Kilohana
I think I'm gonna save this one. It almost completely covers the entire gambit of assumptions and false conclusions of the pro-homosexual movement, and can be methodically refuted on a point by point basis.

Good post.

14 posted on 09/13/2006 1:30:52 PM PDT by The Blitherer (You were given the choice between war & dishonor. You chose dishonor & you will have war. -Churchill)
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To: Keli Kilohana
What if someone had written the following:

"Since I have a son who is an adulterer, I will base my answer on experience, on common sense, on education and on conscience.

Adultery is not wrong. The sin is in the warped mind of the pastor who preaches against the sin. One doesn't choose adultery just as one does not choose monogamous heterosexuality. Why, pray tell me, would a person who has a choice of his sexual activity choose to be adulterous in a society that has pastors nationwide preaching that God condemns adultery? And that has scorned wives everywhere aching to pound senseless any unfaithful husband that crosses their paths? Further, adultery does not define what a person does as an adulterer; rather, he or she was born an adulterer! The term for the act is adultery, derived from the sin that God condemned in the Ten Commandments. The word adultery is defined as a person having a sexual affair with a person to whom he or she is not married. A person's sexual activity is a characteristic of the person not what the person does. Some were born adulterers and some were not! Those with this DNA find each other and commit adultery.

The conscience of an adulterer is not wracked by guilt but is wracked by fear of people who believe that adulterous behavior is aberrant and is an affront to Jehovah. I say Jehovah because the Father of Christ did not teach His child to hate sin. Where in the Gospels does a pastor read that Christ condemned adultery?

My son's conscience is clear with regard to his sexual dalliances. He didn't choose to be an adulterer. He was born an adulterer. His conscience is clear because he expresses his sexuality in accordance with his sexuality. He does what is right in his own eyes.

Some think that all an adulterer has to do is change his view and become faithful to his or her spouse. What a simplistic and ignorant presumption! An adulterer can no more change his sexual activity than can a monogamist heterosexual change his sexual orientation. Adulterers are much more than ten percent of the population around the world and have been from time out of mind. They are as much God's creation or nature's as are monogamous husbands and wives.

Most preachers base their arguments against adultery on the existence of a God. How does he know that there is a God and how do they know that their God condemns adulterers? They presume that there is a God who is an entity separate from His creation, that He is male and has condemned adultery. To believe and condemn on such tenuous and improbable presumptions exhibits a cerebrum of low wattage.

Of course, they turn to the Bible. Where in the Bible do they turn? Why, where else but to Exodus 20, a book of horrors and death sentences for acts Christians do daily. And where else? To St. Paul. Why doesn't a Christian pastor read the Sermon on the Mount and quote Christ on adultery? The answer is that Christ will not help him in his crusade against adultery. But Christ will make him ashamed of himself and wrack his conscience with his message of forgiveness, love and mercy.

Preachers who preach against adultery know the congregation is entirely born again monogamous heterosexuals and that they will get merits for their hate. To hate the sin and love the sinner does not absolve them from the sin of hating. Christ's Father knows the phrase is a subterfuge. Every sin is the result of an act and an act is the result of a person's action. The hate finally roosts on an adulterer's shoulder. And that person is someone who has awakened to know that he is a philanderer in a world of monogamous heterosexuals, who mostly hate adultery. Even the least sensitive of monogamous heterosexuals must in a moment of contemplation realize the nightmarish world he has helped to create for adulterous people. A preacher should consider the consequences of his hate and his preaching of it lest on Judgment Day he has to answer for it."


(NOTE: What if one substitutes pedophile, pedophilic and pedophilia for adulterer, adulterous and adultery in this epistle?)
15 posted on 09/13/2006 1:39:14 PM PDT by Keli Kilohana (Editor, ZARR CHASM CHRONICAL [sic], Sore, WV)
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To: Keli Kilohana

Mr Mann's arguments are counter-intuitive, and disproved by science and experience.


16 posted on 09/13/2006 1:43:14 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Keli Kilohana

"The chief danger of the homosexual lifestyle is bigots and those who inspire bigots, namely, homophobic pastors."

How truly preposterous. The most dangerous thing to a practicing homosexual is another homosexual who will gladly infect him with the HIV virus. That's led to 1.5 million dead in the U.S.

How many have bigots killed?


17 posted on 09/13/2006 2:15:46 PM PDT by Elpasser
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To: Keli Kilohana
The "Father" is grabbing for straws. His son is genetically deformed. It is the nature of animals and humans to abhor differences from the norm.

I've seen animals attack same species because they were different and kill them.

Give him another 10,000 years and maybe humans will accept the mating of like sexes without revulsion.

....that is after they have lost their spirituality and humanity...

18 posted on 09/13/2006 2:28:44 PM PDT by Shamrock-DW
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To: Keli Kilohana

Ping = Later


20 posted on 09/13/2006 2:51:51 PM PDT by Wings-n-Wind (All of the answers remain available; Wisdom is gained by asking the right questions!)
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To: Keli Kilohana

-"He became gay in the same manner that the pastor became straight. He was born gay."-

Really? When your son was born, how did his "gayness" exhibit itself? This is ridiculous.


22 posted on 09/13/2006 3:33:06 PM PDT by AmericanChef
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To: Keli Kilohana
Darn, no email address for Mr. Mann. I love emailing these people and inviting them to visit the FR link to their article.

23 posted on 09/13/2006 3:52:38 PM PDT by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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