Posted on 09/19/2006 5:06:34 AM PDT by maryz
The pope said things Muslims need to hear about faith and reason.
It's a familiar spectacle: furious demands for an apology, threats, riots, violence. Anything can trigger so-called Muslim fury: a novel by a British-Indian writer, newspaper cartoons in a small Nordic country or, this past week, a talk on theology by the head of the Roman Catholic Church.
In a lecture on "Faith and Reason" at the University of Regensburg in Germany, Benedict XVI cited one of the last emperors of Byzantium, Manuel II Paleologus. Stressing the 14th-century emperor's "startling brusqueness," the pope quoted him as saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
Taken alone, these are strong words. However, the pope didn't endorse the comment that he twice emphasized was not his own.
(Excerpt) Read more at opinionjournal.com ...
The WSJ chimes in.
I don't know if I would call him "brave." My suspicion is that if he'd known what the reaction would be, he would not have said it.
But we need a lot of people to speak out like this. The fact that the Pope makes the comment, and Muslims notice indicates that not enough people are speaking out.
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus
You may be right, but I believe he knew exactly what the reaction was going to be. I suspect he is setting up some chess pieces in the board.
You may be right that he didn't know what the reaction would be -- or even that there would be one. I wasn't there; I don't know how many reporters were covering it (obviously the BBC was!). But since every papal address is posted on the Vatican site, in numerous translations, it wasn't meant to be a secret.
Following his apology for speaking the truth, Benedict is to be renamed Pope Dhimmi XVI. . . . . .
Good piece. As far as the latter goes, however, I don't think we should be scheduling the meeting room anytime soon.
Direct criticism of Mohammedanism will result in the persecution of Christians in Mohammedan lands. The pope put out a feeler. At least that's what I hope.
He'll be a dhimmi when he disavows the following, which he himself put his signature to in the year 2000 when he was a cardinal:
From Dominus Iesus
Certainly, the various religious traditions contain and offer religious elements which come from God, and which are part of what “the Spirit brings about in human hearts and in the history of peoples, in cultures, and religions”. Indeed, some prayers and rituals of the other religions may assume a role of preparation for the Gospel, in that they are occasions or pedagogical helps in which the human heart is prompted to be open to the action of God. One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine origin or an ex opere operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the Christian sacraments. Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend on superstitions or other errors (cf. 1 Cor 10:20-21), constitute an obstacle to salvation.
It's not nice to use the Canadian Air Force motto like that. (Reach the stars through struggle and excellence)
The Pope did not apologize, he merely expressed surprise at the violent reaction. He can be excoriated for that. You never diss a society based on honor killings.
The Pope only has to look at Italy to see the destructive effect of honor killings. Northern Italy is westernized and prosperous. Once you get south of Naples, personal honor is of most importance, and dirt poor. It's a cultural distinction, not a religious. Hannity touches on it when he distinguishes Islam from Islamic fascism. But I'm arguing ideas and not personalities.
Nice to see you on board, newbie.
Dialogue is so overrated.
Time for some new "rules"?
"Once you get south of Naples, personal honor is of most importance, and dirt poor. It's a cultural distinction, not a religious."
Why are you making excuses for savages? You can explain the so called reason for the killings in psychological terms or cultural terms all day long and the same result is death.
If the Islamic radicals don't change their ways most of the rest of the world may succumb to an "honor" killing on a massive scale.
You sound like the crocodile hunter. "You just have to have knowledge of the animal and understand it." BS
This is a great point! I keep hearing that the islamo-fascists are only a tiny minority of islam and that they are corrupting and co-opting a great religion and that the vast majority of muslims reject this. Yet, nobody complains...if you say something derogatory about islam thousands pour into the streets the world over, fatwahs are issued, innocents murdered and bulidings get bombed, cars are torched and Westerners wring their hands and whine. But if somebody actually does something that's supposed to be an absolute affront to islam and a crime that screams out to heaven for justice...like oh, I don't know, flying jets into occupied buildings and killing thousands of innocent people...those same people are oddly silent. Well, except for the ones in the street celebrating mass murder and passing out candies.
As far as I'm concerned the reasonable, moderate muslim majority is a myth. Muslims don't want dialog with the West, they want conquest and conversion. Period. And as long as we deny this truth that is before our faces the closer they get to their goal.
That's ridiculous, insulting and wrong. The Pope did NOT apologize for anything! He said he was sorry that muslims reacted mthey way they did to his words. He's sorry for their barbaric behavior...not for what he said.
'It's not nice to use the Canadian Air Force motto like that. (Reach the stars through struggle and excellence)'
Literally it means 'Through struggles to the stars.' Actually it's the motto of the British Royal Air Force, but later adopted by the commonwealth air forces of Canada, Australia and New Zealand among others. It was originally coined by JS Yule as a variation on Sicictar ad Astra from the Virgilian texts.
'The Pope did not apologize, he merely expressed surprise at the violent reaction. He can be excoriated for that. You never diss a society based on honor killings.'
Well, if this quote from his speech isn't an apology, I don't know what is:
. . . ." At this time, I wish also to add that I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims.". . .
The difference between sorry and sorry for the reaction is entirely semantic from one who claims infallibility.
Where did those comments come from? Wowie Kazowie
I thought I thoroughly insulted the societies that base their rules on personal honor, and you think I was defending them. Lawd Almighty, don't that beat all!
Anywho, I tracked down a nise essay from a college perfesser that downrite splains dis. Mebbe Iyull post it, but be forewarned, it has lots of 4 or 5 syllabalical wurds and talkz bout dem dere idears.
Reply to post 8: I agree, their is nothing to "dialogue about" until the Muslims that don't believe in violence come forward to denounce the crazies. I'm guessing the violence will never be denounced. What my Vietnamese aunt says, Doom on you (sp)?
*from one who claims infallibility*
Actually, popes don't claim infallibility. They assign different levels of importance to their statements. From the weather and traffic (none) to matters of discipline (marriage of priests - very) to doctrine ( these are generally infallible).
Only one papal statement has been assigned infallible status in the last 200 years, back in the 1870s I think. It was not done casually, only after several convocations of cardinals and bishops. The pope is not a supreme commander, but a very collegial creature.
It is understandable this is not known, even faithful Catholics don't understand this.
The pope basically apologized to the nun's family for the actions of the killer. This is not a semantic difference, it's actually an insult that did not go over the head of the violent Muslums. You do realize apologizing for another's actions implies that person is not responsible for their actions and didn't realize the consequences? Ratzinger basically joined the war on the side of the civilized.
I think there have been one or two Muslims who are starting to get it -- one Australian, Ameer Ali, was criticized as "not helpful" by Cardinal Pell. In what appears to be a later statement, Ali seems to say that the hotheads' response is as "medieval" as the original quotation and that they are only proving the Pope's point -- he want to "move on." Granted, it's not much, but it's better than "Death to the Pope!", and the water on stone technique has been known to work.
From what I read, I suspect that the majority of imams are not educated in any meaningful sense of the word, and I think the foaming-at-the-mouth "Arab street" is picking up their marching orders there. The imams' usual reaction seems to start with fingers-in-the-ears "la-la-la-la, I can't hear you." Makes it difficult indeed.
I think, though, that even if Benedict thinks that Islam is unreformable (a report of that is posted on FR), he does not think that of individual Muslims -- in fact, he couldn't without heresy.
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