Filmmaker captures toll road opposition

San Antonio Express-News ^ | October 6, 2006 | Patrick Driscoll

[WesternPacific]

State officials say that to solve traffic congestion...

If they want to solve traffic congestion, especially in San Antonio, they should deport all 12-20 million illegals.

[BobL]

"It's mildly interesting that you consider someone making a (presumably) rational economic choice (to use the tollroad or not) as being "pushed" upon you. Is the source some sort of sense of entitlement?"

It's no different from taxes. If you tax something greatly, people will tend to avoid it. If you're tolling at some insane rate, and other options exist (like what's left of I-35, in this case - or surface streets in other cases), people will consider the alternatives and clog surface highways. This happened when they doubled the tolls on trucks on the Ohio Turnpike. The diverted trucks started having accidents in the small towns on the parallel routes, and the state then decided that they needed to lower the tolls (fortunately, since Ohio owns the turnpike, they can adjust the tolls - rather than having to go begging to Cintra - which is our future).

What I cannot understand is how pushing cars and trucks on to surface streets is helpful to Texas, in any way.

[1rudeboy]

First of all, tolls are not taxes, although your second observation is correct: they have the same effect on behavior. In any case, what happened in Ohio is the politicians decided to milk the truck-transportation cow, and failed to consider the policy ramifications same. It's rather tough to argue that Cintra will do the same, because Cintra (apart from being bound by the terms of the contract) will try to maximize the revenue from the trucks without losing them. That's the difference between public (governmental) operation of something and private operation.

[Ben Ficklin]

Are you saying that you don't use the surface streets?

Of course you do.

Look, the voters have said that they don't want "pay as you go". For you to say that "pay as you go" is an option is ignoring reality.

[welfareisslavery]

I came down Mopac out of Round Rock on Friday. First time in a while. I noticed that those toll booths went up real fast, the whole project is moving quickly and quietly. What does that say to me? Money. Real money. It is taking TxDot longer to build a bridge over the railroad in my hometown than it is for the whole toll project to go into Austin. Of course, I think the whole toll road thing is a vast yankee conspiracy. Pay as you go? whatever. These projects will eat up the available corridors and there will be no alternative to them. You will drive and you will pay. have a nice day.

[BobL]

...except that maximizing revenue will not necessarily lead to low tolls - the maximum revenue point depends on demand versus capacity. If demand versus capacity is high enough, tolls will have be set very high in order to keep traffic moving. That is the power this governor is handing over to Cintra. Heck, in California they have a toll road now charging 85 cents per mile for cars, at peak times.

The trucks are not a 'block' of vehicle in the sense that all of their drivers think alike. The big trucking companies may well cut a deal with Cintra, but for the independents, the decisions will be one load at a time.

If an independent knows that he will have 4 hours to spare when he arrives at his destination, for a particular load, then he will very likely stay off the toll road - particularly at the 50 cents per mile being discussed, as that money is right out of his pocket.

If there are no tolls, then he will DEFINITELY take the freeway for the same trip, as it is less stressful. I think that we both prefer that the trucker stay off of the side streets.

As to Cintra's pricing strategy - it will depend on how solid their non-compete clauses are. If people HAVE to use the toll road (or spend the day inching along), Cintra will make a killing by simply raising the tolls through the roof without expanding capacity - whereas here in Harris County, they are adding lanes to the tollway - since there is a political price to be paid if they simply raised tolls to cut down congestion. Cintra will not (and has not) cared about public opinion.

[BobL]

"Look, the voters have said that they don't want "pay as you go"."

Get real, you and everyone else on this thread know that the voters had NO CLUE what was coming when they agreed to dump pay as you go. I doubt 1% of Texans even know it was voted on.

For a democracy to work, you need leaders who communicate with people, rather than TRICK THEM.

[Ben Ficklin]

Sure they knew. And they still know. Do they want the road built sooner than later. Overwhelmingly yes.

[deport]

Hmmm, I wonder what the Gov and his supporters are afraid of.

---

Nothing is my guess, but then that don't fit with your conspiracy agenda.

How do you look at something that hasn't been finalized?

[BobL]

"your conspiracy agenda"

You were doing good - but now you need to get personal. I guess you also feel defeated.

Anyway, we've been down this road. There are lawsuits demanding that the contract be made public - so obviously I'm not the only one who thinks it's already a done deal.

[BobL]

Yep - all 1% of them.

Let's put the TTC Plan, with it's foreign ownership and 50 contracts up for a vote. You may not like the outcome.

Anyway, it won't happen, as Perry doesn't see a need for the consent of the governed.

So long, I'm done with this thread.

[1rudeboy]

So long, I'm done with this thread.

Again you evacuate a tollroad thread when I'm about to point out your misconceptions . . . I was going to talk about trucking . . . and what makes you think that a trucker is capable of doing a cost/benefit analysis that will always cause him to favor an option other than using a tollroad. And your 85 cent/mile California toll road, what is it, two miles long? Is it a bridge?

[deport]

Anyway, we've been down this road. There are lawsuits demanding that the contract be made public - so obviously I'm not the only one who thinks it's already a done deal.

---

What contract be made public, The Master development plan?.

Okay, here you go..... good reading and report back to us what you decipher. You could have looked it up but didn't so I'll post the link for you.

The entire master development plan, approximately 1,600 pages, is available on TxDOT’s Web site at www.txdot.gov and the TTC Web site at www.keeptexasmoving.org.

There aren't any constuct contracts signed yet are there?.... There was the Development project listed above and now Cintra/Zachry apparently will have a construct contract for segments 5 & 6 of the SH 130 when the Feds give the Okay.

Do you know of any finalized, signed construct contracts? If so please post which ones.

[texastoo]

If you ever get a link to the contract, please ping me.

[BobL]

Ok - I'm back.

As far as the independent trucker goes, it's not too hard for them to figure out what to do when it's either paying $200 in tolls (right out of their pocket) to go 400 miles - and then having nothing to do for 4 hours, or not paying tolls and having nothing to do for 1 hour. And yes - that does happen with independent truckers - THEY ARE NOT THAT DUMB!

As for the California highway - specifically, it is toll lanes that were added to State Highway 91. The lanes were very cheap to build, as the ROW was already down the center of the highway. They are 10 miles long and charge 85 cents per mile on Thursday and Friday PM rush hours. The reason that they can charge so much is that the traffic sucks on the alternatives. That may be ok with you, but I'd rather have lower tolls and more concrete - unfortunately Perry just closed out that option by giving Cintra their monopoly.

Anything else?

[deport]

If you ever get a link to the contract, please ping me.

---

Okay I'll ask you the same question I asked BobL...... What contract? The development contract or construct/operate contracts?...

[1rudeboy]

As far as the independent trucker goes, it's not too hard for them to figure out what to do when it's either paying $200 in tolls (right out of their pocket) to go 400 miles - and then having nothing to do for 4 hours, or not paying tolls and having nothing to do for 1 hour.

No, it's not too hard for a trucker to figure it out, and they see it differently than you . . . .

The three hours that trucker saves, in your example, can be spent sleeping (off the clock), waiting to be unloaded (on the clock), or visiting "sweet Eileen in Abilene." Moreover, you cannot discount arriving at the destination faster (waiting to be unloaded, above). Being second in line makes a heck of a difference than being seventh. It gets you back on the road faster (faster to your next load, next stop, next Eileen, home, whatever). Time is money . . . that you do understand. What you do not understand is both sides of the equation.

Finally, if the thought of paying tolls is so onerous to a truck driver, why do you see trucks on tollroads? Personally, seeing a "convoy" of 30 or 40 trucks heading north (and rolling through the tollbooth without stopping) on the Tri-State Tollway (Illinois) on an early weekday morning warms my heart. You think they're on surface streets sitting at redlights.

[BobL]

We've been down this road before.

This is just a development plan, not a contract or agreement. It does not mention anything regarding non-compete clauses, we we now know exist - thanks to this thread. Thus, we're still not getting the story.

[BobL]

Ok, if you're going to believe that financial incentives (or disincetives) do NOT affect behaviour, you need a lot more help than I can give you at this website.

[BobL]

"If you ever get a link to the contract, please ping me."

My pleasure. Apparently there is something out there with a non-compete clause(s) - I just haven't been shown it yet.