Torre: Yanks' Offer Was an Insult

AP via Breit Bart ^ | Oct. 19, 2007 | RONALD BLUM (AP Base Ball Writer)

[AmericanExceptionalist]

Another example of why I could give a rat’s arse about professional sports . It’s ALL about money these days . Take me back to the “ old days “ when THE GAME came first .

I agree completely with that observation. Near where I live, the NHL's Nashville Predators are now "rebuilding" because management no longer wanted to pay the large salaries of the team's talented veterans; so it traded them instead.

College sports (and even high-school sports) are steeped in team spirit and enthusiasm. Any type of sports not steeped in team spirit and enthusiasm is, well, irrelevant to my interests.

[Alberta's Child]

Joe's downfall, also according to critique I've read, is his bullpen management.

He definitely deserves some criticism for that, but keep in mind that it's hard to manage your bullpen well when you've got 3-4 senior citizens in your starting rotation. It seems their relievers break down near the end of every season, and it's not Torre's fault that guys like Farnsworth are totally erratic from one game to the next.

[doctor noe]

“Take me back to the “ old days “ when THE GAME came first.”

The Curt Flood fiasco and ensuing free agency screwed that up. The good old days were when players belonged to a team, and they remained the teams’ property until the teams decided to either trade them or release them. Now, we have $100 tickets and $10 beer. I long for the days of Disco Night, 10-cent Beer Night and Hard Liquor & Handgun Night.

[discostu]

I am calling BS because you continue to cloud the issue with dollar amounts that are besides the point. The point is that a person SHOULD be insulted when their boss demands they take a 30% pay cut, whether it’s 30% of $10/ hr or 30% of $300,000,000/yr is immaterial. When your boss makes that kind of demand of you he is announcing that he considers you overpaid, which is an insult regardless of the dollars in the offer. And if you honestly can’t see that then somebody needs to tell your boss, because I know how he can trim the budget.

[Michael.SF.]

If you were worth millions, and really didn’t need to work another day in your life ... would you accept an insulting pay cut?

All good points.

If I was Torre, you are right, I might tell Georgie boy to stick it, mainly for his lack of gratitude. Then I would scout out the teams that might have the best chance of preventing the Yankees from winning again and see if they wanted my services.

Then a pay cut would certainly be acceptable.

My previous answers were based on a desire/need to continue working in the same field, which is different then this situation.

[SnakeDoctor]

>> No young talent?
[...]
Robinson Cano, 2B
Melky Cabrera, CF
Joba Chamberlain, P
Phil Hughes, P
Ian Kennedy, P
Chien Ming Wang, P

Are already on the roster.

Of those players ... only Cabrera, Wang, Hughes and Cano started regularly.

The remainder of their starters included overpriced free-agents ... i.e. Jason Giambi, Bobby Abreu, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Alex Rodriguez, Carl Pavano, Johnny Damon, Kyle Farnsworth, Hideki Matsui ... and some overpriced homegrown veterans (Jorge Posada, Mike Mussina, Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera).

You might notice the list of overpriced veterans outnumber your youngsters almost three-to-one. Every team needs veteran talent and leadership ... but the Yankees have overkilled on free-agent signings.

Building a team by overspending on free agents who are past their prime is not a winning strategy.

H

[discostu]

Look at that you just changed your tune. You admitted the offer is a “lack of gratitude” (an insult). See I was right to call BS.

[longjack]

Oddly enough, the disastrous pitching by the one "stable young arm" in their pitching rotation (Chien-Ming Wang) was the single biggest factor in their playoff loss this year.

Wang's poor end of year performance was due to losing the arm angle on his sinkerball. He didn't have a strong enough #2 pitch and had to come back with the sinkerball that didn't 'sink'.

That will be pinned on Ron Guidry.

The Yankees like the package deal of Cardinal's manager Tony LaRussa and pitching coach Dave Duncan, but Duncan has a year left on his contract.

Dave Eiland is the name I hear mentioned often as the new pitching coach. I think he's worked with the young pitchers in the past.

[peggybac]

“A 30% pay cut, regardless of the final number, is definitely a statement on non-confidence. People shouldn’t let class envy get into this, if your boss offered to let you stay at a 30% pay cut assuming the company wasn’t in dire financial straits you’d probably be a little miffed.”

Absolutely! Speculation is that if Torre continues to coach, he’ll go to St. Louis. How I wish KC could come up with money to lure him here - that would be great.

[longjack]

Events with Joba Chamberlain this year were the straw that broke the camel’s back.

[Michael.SF.]

Sorry, I disagree with your perspective. One which seems to assume that the person was worth what he was being paid to begin with. In this case, Torre was 'worth' that only to George Steinbrenner and being offered a salary which is competitive with the market is reality. He should be thankful that he had such a lucritive run.

You call it an insult, fine. Have it that way. I call it reality and his value is only the value that the market (other owner's) are willing to pay.

Are you willing to bet that if Torre accepts a manager's position someplace else that it is for even less then this offer?

[ilgipper]

The Yankees have spent $200M on overpriced hitters and has-been pitching. They have no young talent ... but, instead, are overpaying players who were good 4 or 5 years ago (usually for other teams).

You are mostly right, except that right now they have completely restocked the farm system in the past few years...making many less trades for big names in exchange for the future. Two home grown players in the field this year played a big role with the team - Cano and Cabrera. Two rookie pitchers were brought up too - Joba Chamberlain and Philip Hughes. Another young pitcher came up and those three are expected to be big time in the next couple years. The Yankees essentially have been rebuilding at the same time as competing. A difficult balance, although less difficult when spending that much $$ each year. Unfortunately, these days, pitching is at such a premium in the majors that their rotation is too old, and they would have had to sacrifice a lot of their youngsters to go out and fix it.

[Alberta's Child]

The Yankees like the package deal of Cardinal's manager Tony LaRussa and pitching coach Dave Duncan, but Duncan has a year left on his contract.

I don't know about Duncan, but I've never been a fan of LaRussa. Yes, he's had some success in the past -- but he's also had some disappointing results that rival what the Yankees have gone through with Torre in the last few years (those Oakland teams of the late 1980s were a perfect case in point).

In addition to that, I would never trust a guy who spent most of his career managing teams in which so many key players were involved in steroid controversies.

Dave Eiland is the name I hear mentioned often as the new pitching coach. I think he's worked with the young pitchers in the past.

As far as pitching coaches go, the legendary Leo Mazzone has just been replaced in Baltimore. Don't be surprised if he ends up in New York next season.

[Alberta's Child]

Events with Joba Chamberlain this year were the straw that broke the camel’s back.

I was out of the country for his first few weeks on the roster. What events in particular are you referring to?

[muir_redwoods]

I hate the NYY so I hope whoever made this decision for the Yankees keeps making decisions for the team

[montag813]

The absurd saga of the most overrated manager in baseball history continues. Had buck Showalter been left in place one more year (1996), he too would have won the WS. Torre was a multi-year loser when he managed St. Louis years ago. LaRussa is a jerk, but he took an 83-win Cardinals and a crappy Jeff Suppan and won it all. The Torre-Worship is so nauseating, especially here in NYC, having to stomach the daily butt-licking morons Mike and Mad Dog, who treat Torre like he's the Pope. He's so CLASSSSSSY. So what? He made $7.5 mil and lost every year. His management of pitching i9n the 2004 WS and this entire season was pathetic. And leaving Jaba on the mound with bugs flying everywhere showed his lack of balls. Does anyone think Jim Leyland or LaRussa would have let Chamberlain throw another pitch with 100 bugs crawling on his neck and face?

Giving Torre credit for the Yankees' success is like giving the Maitre d' the credit for good reviews at Spago.

[Michael.SF.]

just gonna read all the love & hate that will be posted by the haters & fair weather fans!!!!

I've had a love/hate relationship with the Yankees all my life as I am a Dodger fan, one who grew up in the late 50's early 60's. When the Yankee's were down, in the late 60's and into the 70's, it just did not seem right.

Now I have settled on a comfortable in between. I want the Yankees to do well, but not that well. They can make the play offs, then lose or they can even occassionally, maybe 1 year out of 5, make the Series, but they can only win every other time.

That seems fair to me.

;)

[Michael.SF.]

Look at that you just changed your tune. You admitted the offer is a “lack of gratitude” (an insult).

Not the same.

Lack of gratitude is not saying thank you.

An insult is saying: "Thank you, a##hole."

And no, I did not change, read the qualifier at the end of the post.

[longjack]

I think the Yankees like Duncan, and LaRussa is the other part of the package.

I know Mazzone was let go, and I've seen his name mentioned and he is highly regarded, but Dave Eiland is the name I've seen that is given the best shot. I believe he has worked succesfully with the young pitchers in the minors who are now in or own their way to the Bronx.

Interestingly, Bowa is moving to Seattle as 3rd base coach, and Mel Stottlemyre is going there as well as the pitching coach.

[discostu]

You disagree with the most basic principle of a free market economy?! According to every principle of Adam Smith a pay rate freely agreed upon by both employee and employer with no coercion involved is a fair pay rate and is indeed what the employee is worth. It doesn’t matter if there’s not another employer on the earth who’d pay that, and it doesn’t matter if there’s not another employee on the earth who’d get that pay. It is a freely agreed upon rate and therefore is an accurate representation of the worth of the employee.

Which is of course where the insult comes in. Because now all of a sudden the employer is saying “you know what I was wrong, you’re not worth that, you weren’t worth that, you’re taking a cut”, that is an insult.

Doesn’t matter what Torre or the Yankees do after this, yesterday by demanding he take a 30% pay cut they insulted him, nothing in the future can change the past.