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To: Mr. Silverback
First, there is no separation of church and state conflict here

Huh?

From the article:

"...must repay about $160,000 to the state for money received between June 2006 and June 2007..."

"The 24-hour a day, seven-day a week program at Newton immerses inmates in evangelical Christianity."

That's money received from the government used directly to evangelize inmates. How can this be anything other than a clear conflict?

Indeed, the director of the program was pleased with the ruling, since it clarified what is and isn't permissible, and since they are now fully funded from private sources, so long as the program is not compulsory or tied in with some other prison privileges, then there is nothing for them to worry about.

Muslim prison programs also claim to have turned around the lives of prisoners, and I don't doubt they have help some inmates. Do we want the state funding their efforts too when they apply for funding?

Sounds like a good result all round to me.

7 posted on 12/04/2007 12:28:44 AM PST by tyke
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To: tyke
That's money received from the government used directly to evangelize inmates. How can this be anything other than a clear conflict?

Actually, there are two, big fat reasons that it's not a conflict. One is just basic logic, and the other is original intent.

First, let's look at the basic logic:

1. The money that Prison Fellowship will repay is money received for providing a service. The state arranged for this group to provide a number of services to the state, many of which would occur in a purely state-run prison, and reimbursed them for it. Treating this as if the state of Iowa made a donation to Jimmy Swaggart is not accurate.

2. Prisoners enter this program voluntarily. To say this program has a conflict is like saying that an afterschool Bible club has a conflict. In both cases, state money is being used to support willing participants in a religious practice. Should the kids in the Bible Club have to pay the school district rent, while the Spanish Club, Chess Club and Freethinkers Club get off scot free, or can they all use the facility?

In fact, check this out: If a voluntary program like this is off limits, then any religious service or ministry visit to a prison would also be off limits. No prison chaplain, no prison chapel, no Angel Tree program, etc. If the prison holds a service and a prisoner is saved, tax dollars supported it by paying for facilities, security and (possibly) the salary of the preacher who conducted the service. Ready to pull the chapels out of prisons? How about AA and Narcotis Anonymous programs, which require the member to accept the guidance of a higher power?

3. Iowa has decided that they want their prisons to rehabilitate. The InnerChange program is astoundingly successful at rehabilitating compared to other programs. The court is saying that the state must choose to run their prison in a way that guarantees fewer prisoners will become productive, law abiding members of society, and presumably this ruling would apply even if they had a program for members of every single religion. In fact, it would not be a stretch to see a court saying that a program designed by a psychologist that has a 50% recidivism rate is acceptable, but a program jointly designed by a Buddhist, a Southern Baptist and a Hindu with an 8% recidivism rate is not, because they expect the attendees to acknowledge a spiritual dimension, or because it requires addicted prisoners to go through a 12 step program. The court is telling the state "the Constitution says you must screw up." I don't think that's in there.

Now let's take a look at original intent. I'll even restrict my discussion to one Founder.

When Thomas "Wall of separation between church and state" Jefferson was President, he attended church in the U.S. Capitol. Note that one of the times he attended was just two days after he penned the "wall of separation" letter to the Danbury Baptists. He had authorized the use of the Capitol for this purpose in a joint decision with the Speaker of the House in 1800. He had the Marine Band play at services there. He authorized church services held in the Treasury building and War Department. He entered into a treaty with the Kaskaskia tribe that required the United States to fund a Catholic priest to minister to them. The Senate ratified it without any controversy that I'm aware of.

Oh, and BTW, church services continued at the Capitol until wll after the Civil War, even though there were 22 churches in Washington by 1837.

If Thomas Jefferson, arguably the least Christian of the Founders and the man who gave us the phrase "separation of church and state" thought it was OK to preach sermons in federal buildings and pay a priest's salary from the treasury, why should we believe that it's not OK to have some prisoners voluntarily enter a religious-themed anti-recidivism program?

24 posted on 12/04/2007 12:07:02 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Support Scouting: Raising boys to be strong men and politically incorrect at the same time.)
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To: tyke

Oh, and I’m sorry to add more to an already long post, but read the First Amendment: Congress is forbidden from establishing a religion or prohibiting free exercise. Iowa is neither setting up a state church or prohibiting anyone from exercising their faith, so this is not even a 1st Amendment case, much less a violation.


25 posted on 12/04/2007 12:12:24 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Support Scouting: Raising boys to be strong men and politically incorrect at the same time.)
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