Posted on 01/24/2009 3:14:47 PM PST by LA Woman3
Ok, now I am confused. Since at first you claimed to possess black powder was demonic. Since I have black powder for my muzzle loader for deer season, this gave me pause. Of course I don’t keep it in my home, but in a seperate out building. I think Koresh, being an avid shooter, as many do, most likely reloaded ammo casings. This would require black powder.
As to thermite grenades, if he had grenades handy, once they were under attack, I figure he would have used them.
I am not buying the line he had explosives in the house-church causing the fire. And you are correct, there is simply no evidence of machine guns. Meanwhile, the front door magically vaporized into thin air. We are supposed to believe exterrestrials swooped it into outer space. Not buying that one either.
no problem..
it was interesting to look it up.
D-
Not a good place to keep a lot of blackpowder, etc.
Thermite grenades are not antipersonnel devices ~ if you really want to know why no one was busy tossing them at the ATF attackers ~ you use them to prevent theft of documents (usually documents readily reproducable, or those with copies stored elsewhere). Guy opens your documents safe the grenade goes off and burns the stuff up.
This is a business. Howell was making the grenades to earn an income.
So, yeah, demonically possessed, just like Janet Reno.
No, it doesn't prove anything.
Look, I don't intend to defend Koresh, and this is an old story. However, I'm highly skeptical of these kinds of charges, especially when there is a chance they were brought to cover some kind of government malfeasance.
Once you understand the background theology the meaning of that whole section becomes quite clear. It has to do with Martin Luther's dispute with the Vatican and the Church hierarchy over their claim to exclusive jurisdiction on matters of faith, morals, and church structure as a consequence of Apostolic Succession.
Remember, the Protestant Reformation was not just about religion, it was about POLITICS, and you had any number of princes around Europe who LIKED the politics, but who had not yet bought into the theology. Luther and others found it more than convenient to simply discuss the Pope, et al, as "Jews".
I'm fairly certain the ruse didn't work when it came to the RC Church ~ they knew very well what Luther was saying and about whom.
After all, Judaism at that time was hardly a threat of any sort to Christianity in Europe, nor was it the greatst threat to Luther's idea of religious independence.
Looks like garden variety sororicide to me.
The motive was likely highly stupid.
But it is well known that Koresh taught he would have as many wives and concubines as King David and that he was picking 10-14 year old girls to be those wives. More than one has testified to that fact if I remember correctly. THeir parents and other cult members have also testified to that fact.
I’m not trying to put you in a position of having to defend Koresh. He was a nut. The government could have simply arrested him when he went into town almost every day rather than assault their compound. None of that changes the fact that he was raping young girls according to the Branch Dividians themselves.
If you read the work, Luther uses no "ruse" - he specifically, and separately, by name, condemns "papists" and "the pope and the devil with him", etc., later on.
Luther had no need of ruse or subterfuge in his wrath, and he's clear when he's condemning Jews and when he's condemning papists. It was for Jews that Luther's advice was "to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn.. "
Your novel revisionism of this piece is just that.
As for the politics, Luther was on the side of the princes and they his. You might be aware of the Luther and the Peasants War. And of Cromwell's Irish Campaign, etc. Depending on where and when you lived it could be dangerous to be either Protestant or Catholic. It cut both ways politically.
Plus, depending on whose jurisdiction you were in at the time you counseled your speech to match his personal religious preferences.
Still, realistically, who were the Jews who threatened Christianity in Luther's day? Obviously NO ONE.
My thoughts on the matter are hardly novel.
The dead peasants who thought they followed Luther soon found out whose side he was on.
realistically, who were the Jews who threatened Christianity in Luther's day? Obviously NO ONE.
Why on earth is that a requirement for hate? What does that have to do with Luther's wrath? Read the piece!
Luther was never subtle, used no code words for the Pope and the Church - ever. From start to finish. From posting his theses on the Castle Church in Wittenberg until his death, he said pope and papist and all manner of invective to describe the Church without restraint or subterfuge. And his hatred of Jews is as clear and as equal and as accurately named and described.
My thoughts on the matter are hardly novel.
No reputable scholar would say Luther's "On the Jews and Their Lies" is not referring to exactly what Luther says it does.
For certain, your logic is quite novel.
None of this has anything to do with whether or not Martin Luther was a man of his time ~ which would probably mean rather anti-semitic. In fact, he was probably anti-French, anti-Italian and anti-Spanish for that matter.
We can only imagine what he thought of the Congolese and Chinese but I'm sure it wasn't fit for polite company.
Now, what was the point you were making?
Failing to do so could result in loss of patronage or protection.
In Luther's time Jews did not claim authority over religious matters simply because of their descent from Abraham (and the control of The Temple) ~ but the Catholic Church claimed authority as a consequence of Apostolic Succession and Jesus' direction given to St. Peter ~ which it still does.
It's pretty obvious that the chapter you selected to post has much more to do with Apostolic Succession than any particular Jewish religious claims then threatening Protestantism (of which there were none).
Filtering the gene pool.
That, contrary to your posts, when Luther says Jews he means Jews.
Yeah, that's why he titled it, "On the Jews and Their Lies."
“He had large quantities of black powder to make thermite grenades. He had all the makings of these grenades IN THE HOUSE ~ with women, children, etc.”
That’s interesting bit of info there. I know it was reported he ordered black powder etc. But I haven’t read where he stored black powder “IN THE HOUSE.” Is this info in any official report? I’d love to read all about it. Got link?
ping to #48
You realize, of course, that you're spewing government propaganda, don't you?
What you remember are the government propaganda put out by the ATF and Dallas Morning News designed to conceal the government's culpability by demonizing Koresh and his followers.
He may have been nut, as were his followers, but last time I checked, being a religious nut isn't against the law. In fact, the last time I checked, the 1st Amendment guarantees religious freedom for just these kinds of nuts.
Now, about the many wives and child abuse. Where do these accusation originate? Cult Awareness Network (CAN).
See: CAN Members
And, before you ask, Mark Breault is 100% blind in one eye and has 2% vision in the other. IOW, he's blind. Just like the ATF who used his affidavit for the warrant and the Dallas Morning News reporter who quoted him in the newspaper.
I’m not trying to put you in a position of having to defend Koresh. He was a nut. The government could have simply arrested him when he went into town almost every day rather than assault their compound. None of that changes the fact that he was raping young girls according to the Branch Dividians themselves.
Do you have a source for the information that Koresh was raping young girls. Which young girls were raped?
Which Branch Davidian made these claims? Can you name them and their relationship to Koresh?
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