Posted on 01/24/2009 3:14:47 PM PST by LA Woman3
What is Kiri Jewell's history? What is her parents' relationship to Koresh and the Branch Davidians?
See: CAN Members
There's not a lot of propaganda in it but it does contain the lists of materials sent to Howell at the house. I have a copy placed away somewhere.
The FBI knew very well the place was full of gunpowder when ATF made its raid. It could have been touched off in an instant with a stray round.
Take a good look at the billowing clouds of smoke pouring out of the house at the end. That's not all wood and tarpaper.
There's a double entendre in that piece ~ Martin identified the Catholic hierarchy and their supporters with the Jews ~ who were as hated by Catholics at the time as they were anyone else (maybe more since the Catholics were into burning them at the stake). Yet, the doctrines with which he was concerned in that piece are simply not a big thing in Judaism today, nor 500 years ago. At the same time their parallel/counterpart doctrines continue to describe some fundamental differences between Catholics and Protestants.
You wrote:
“You realize, of course, that you’re spewing government propaganda, don’t you?”
Oh, here we go again. Look, you can defend the Branch Dividians if you want. You can defend Koresh, pretend he didn’t rape litt;e girls, make wild claims about cover-ups, government propaganda, blah, blah, blah.
None of that changes the facts: Koresh was a cult leader who preached he was the messiah. He raped little girls. He took other mens’ wives. He was scum.
Now, if you want to whine on an on about how all of these girls, their parents, the reporters, the police, the government, etc. were all involved in one of the world’s biggest cover-ups, you go right ahead and do that.
I feel sorry for the kids who were raped while their parents did nothing or were even helping make it happen, and for the kids who died when it could have been avoided. I also feel sorry for those who are so deluded that they can’t believe Koresh was a child rapist and that the government acted imprudently at the same time. No, instead they believe the latter some how makes the former impossible. Sorry, both are true.
Who will you defend next? How about David Berg and the Children of God? Why don’t you give that a crack?
The place was also fuel of propane fuel, which tends to ignite spectacularly when warmed.
Again, ATF knew about the gunpowder stores inside the home when they made their attack.
Real smart bunch eh!
There is an alternate explanation for all that stuff. They were into guns. Alot of folks in Texas are.
Weird for a religious cult, but not illegal.
And yes, the ATF were criminally stupid on this one.
I think you should have stopped digging a while back.
Don't have clue about reloading, do you ?
Facts are funny things, aren't they?
Had you been around these parts during their last trial you would have seen all these points debated and debunked.
I don't care to debate this again, especially with someone who takes Rick Ross's and the federal government's word as the gospel, pun intended.
If you're interested to see the discussion and debunking go to: http://www.alamo-girl.com/
Most of Howell's followers were sad little people who couldn't deal with life. The local sheriff could have taken him at any time, as he went jogging outside the compound every morning. The BATF raid was the exact thing to shove a guy like Howell over the edge. It was the worst possible way to handle the situation, and the Federal Government never had a plausible reason for claiming jurisdiction.
All that being said, Howell was a nut.
You wrote:
“Facts are funny things, aren’t they?”
No, in this case the fact are pretty sad.
“Had you been around these parts during their last trial you would have seen all these points debated and debunked.”
No because Koresh did claim to be the messiah. Heck, I saw him do it in an interview with an Australian tv reporter.
“I don’t care to debate this again, especially with someone who takes Rick Ross’s and the federal government’s word as the gospel, pun intended.”
It wasn’t Rick Ross. Rick Ross merely posted the article. Koresh’s own followers have made the facts plain over and over again.
“If you’re interested to see the discussion and debunking go to: http://www.alamo-girl.com/";
And you would trust that but not articles posted because they were posted by Rick Ross?
They knew that picking out somebody like Koresh would it was a watershed, it is now OK to burn down a church Just make sure they are considered kooks. The attack on Christianity started with "W"s dad at Ruby Ridge. the real question is :The Clinton Administration wanted to attack Christianity.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
rally lots of people behind them.
with people inside.
how soon will the Obama administration burn down a church
with people in it ?
Do you want an answer? Or would you like to explain it to me?
They would have used modern gunpowder for “reloading”. Blackpowder continue to have its uses. You can look up a variety of “recipes” for creating a thermite grenade, or smoke grenade, or whatever. Lots of fun for the whole family!
As far as being into guns, there's this church in downtown Dallas called First Baptist. On any given Sunday (or Tuesday, or any other day for that matter) that parking lot has gotta' have an armory load of guns in the trunks.
I've been given to understand that it's that way all over Texas.
Makes me wonder how it happened that ATF came to raid the church at Waco rather than somewhere else. That was a small congregation!
I agree. He was a nut. So were his followers. They were weak people looking for anyone who claimed a connection with God.
One of them used to run around in a black cloak with a black fedora and a white X on his chest
This sounds like Andrew X98. (See: Why The Name "Andrew X98"?
BTW, my discussions with them about Howell were before the BATF raid, when Howell was just known as one of the local oddballs. There was also some skirmish, I forget the details, where the church he was part of had a split, and supposedly some guns were drawn. That attracted some attention, as around here churches split all the time, they usually don't do it at gunpoint, though.
This was shoot-out that happened when George Roden tried to forcefully take control of the property. Several were arrested, including Howell. He was acquited at trial and released. Roden was inprisoned on an unrelated contempt of court charge.
How about the fact that Texas CPS investigated both the claims of multiple wives and child abuse when the complaints were made and were found to be baseless?
Is that one of the sad facts you were talking about?
Or, the fact that the ATF used these baseless, already investigated claimes as the basis for their original search warrant?
Or, the fact that these baseless, already investigated claims were used as the basis for the Dallas Morning News 'Sinful Messiah' series of articles?
Which sad facts are you talking about?
It wasn’t Rick Ross. Rick Ross merely posted the article. Koresh’s own followers have made the facts plain over and over again.
Yes, and I asked you if you knew who Kiri Jewell was and what was her parents' relationship to Koresh. Do you?
Kiri Jewell was used as a pawn by her ,um, father.
Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, published the following in 1995:
"A few telephone calls would have told them that Kiri had not been a resident in the compound - despite press reports to the contrary. She was living with her mother and grandmother in California for most of the years in question. Her father, David Jewell, has been promoting her allegations on the TV talk show circuit.
"He is a man of questionable character. He abandoned Kiri in Jamaica when she was an infant, has had a series of unstable marriages, and was arrested in 1988 for failure to pay child support."
But, don't believe me. Google Kiri Jewell and Rick Ross, then come back and tell us what credible information you've found that supports child abuse claims.
Rick Ross was working for the Cult Awareness Network and was the one behind all of these false claims from the beginning. That was the M.O. they used to bust cults.
He was the one who supplied the ATF witnesses (remember the blind man?) and the people used for the Dallas Morning News articles (There's that blind man, again).
Again, to which 'facts' are you referring?
And you would trust that but not articles posted because they were posted by Rick Ross?
Yes. You trust Rick Ross because you don't know who he really is. You think he's just another yokel with a web site. He's not.
Alamo-girl's site is trustworthy because, you'll find discussion by FReepers, such as her and myself, who still post here.
Also, because you'll find facts that Rick Ross won't tell you. Such as this one below.
Your heroes, the ATF agents said the BDs were manufacturing illegal machine guns and used that, along with the child abuse claims, as the basis for their original warrant.
House of Representatives Report 104-749 8/2/96 Committee of Government Reform & Oversight "..."The staff also had an opportunity to inspect the physical evidence taken from the ruins of the residence after the fire, much of which had been used in the criminal trial of surviving Davidians. By prior agreement with the Justice Department, a potential witness at the hearings, Failure Analysis Associates, Inc., was to inspect some of the physical evidence in order to respond to tampering allegations. It was believed that the views of scientists from Failure Analysis, who had often performed scientific evaluations for the Federal Government, including the Justice Department and NASA after the Challenger explosion, would be beneficial given public suspicions about the firearms recovered from the site of the Davidian residence…... When the scientists arrived in Austin, the Department declined to make the firearms available to them. The Department agreed instead to conduct the tests itself and present its findings to the subcommittees. A short time later, the Department urged, for cost considerations, that the tests not be performed. As a result, no tests were performed on the firearms." ....."
I think it might be, after reading the interview. The guy I'm talking about passed away a year or so ago. In the interview, he talks about his motorcycle accident disabling him, and the guy I'm thinking of had one leg about four inches shorter than the other. He was very frail, but quite a forceful personality.
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