Posted on 03/13/2010 3:24:18 PM PST by george76
You watch your wife nearly walk into a bear and then tell me what you didn’t need.
Well, ya see, it's that "normally" bit that's at issue. We're not talking "normal", we're talking "abnormal". Kinda like "house fires aren't something that humans would normally have to fear", yet we still have homeowner's fire insurance, and smoke detectors, and fire extinguishers.
You have a gift for subtlety. :-)
Seriously though, we have very little experience in the US with wolves after they have taken down prey levels to the point where they are cannibalizing themselves. As of now, 60% of Yellowstone wolf deaths are due to cannibalism, which is about the same ratio as Denali National Park. Once wolf populations have grown until they crash their prey base, they become much more likely to attack humans en masse, for which a semi-auto rifle is little defense (unless one starts shooting early enough that they eat the fallen instead).
I have this on authority of Dr. Valerius Geist, who should know. He's one serious hunter and is tied in with some very good people.
Just seemed to me...you were pretty serious.
Yeah, the .22 has killed more game in this country than probably any other caliber. That doesn't make it the right caliber for bear, deer, coyotes, wolves, cougar, hogs, elk..etc.
And with all due respect it doesn't make your grandpa the smartest guy in the room either....( IF, he actually intentionally went hunting black bear with a .22 pistol.
So tell me PY...did you kill your grizzly bear with a .22 pistol? I'd guess not.
Once again...it sure seemed to me you were serious with your comment. Sorry if I misread that..............................
fwiw-
LOL thanks. The point I was making was if you’re going to carry, its best to carry something you can manage. Weight and overall size are the other big factors to consider. A 10 lb revolver is not a side arm that will accompany someone on a backpack hunt, if one is carried at all.
I know little about cannabilism of wolves, but am not surprised. Bears of all species are notorious for it. Cubs are a favorite meal for boars, and I’ve watched firsthand a large brown bear attempt it but mom thought differently.
Thanks for the link, I added it to my bookmarked pages and if you have others on the subject please send them. People like that are invaluable, and I tend to weigh their experiences and time in the field more than their time in the classroom or lab. I’m not saying that academics are not important, but IMO the knowledge of a life-long trapper is something a lot of people would undervalue.
I’m not challenging your numbers, but do keep in mind that aerial surveys are done to count animals here. Much of Denali is covered thick with alders and willows, which makes it difficult to spot and can greatly skew results. On the Kenai Peninsula, you have to get drawn for grizzly hunts and they are VERY limited. A year or two ago I think there were only two tags given out because that’s what the survey data showed, and then the animal groups got involved to sway it. To many residents there, they’re often a problem.
Wolves are interesting in that, like people, they will kill for sport. Sometimes they will consume an entire animal, other times they won’t. People have found wolf kills of healthy, mature animals with only the tongue and/or certain organs consumed, and other times nothing eaten at all.
I’m close friends with a native elder who was born and raised deep in the bush, well off the road system. He ran lots of trap lines and has seen a lot of this first hand. He used to work as a guide for a close friend of his who did horse-back hunts in the bush. He said they lost quite a few horses to wolves, but they’d always go for the largest & stronger ones. Never the smaller ones.
When they can’t easily get food, their wariness of people goes away which is not good. They’ll move closer to town to get pets, and occasionally people too.
This winter has been pretty mild here, and I’ve seen a lot of moose and many calves (which is GREAT). It changes a lot over time too. 50-100 years ago there were not many moose up on the Koyukuk River but predators were high, now it is a trophy area. Where freeper ESKA lives, it has changed in a shorter time span.
Don’t know what your thoughts are on re-introduction of wolves in Yellowstone and surrounding areas. I tend to disagree with it, and base that largely on other species adjusting over time. I support predator management, especially where there are people, but don’t think something should be taken to extinction.
Check on Amazon for the book ‘Alaska’s Wolf Man’ by Jim Rearden. An EXCELLENT read, you’d probably really enjoy.
You will find a lot of valuable material on the westinserv.org site. Dr. Kay is DEFINITELY one of those "real life" academics you want on your list.
Wolves are interesting in that, like people, they will kill for sport.
One study counted an average take of 22 elk per wolf per year. Yeah, they think it's fun.
I’m not saying that academics are not important, but IMO the knowledge of a life-long trapper is something a lot of people would undervalue.
I've just finished a new book that emphasizes this very point. Agro-urban societies need these people for their very national survival.
He said they lost quite a few horses to wolves, but they’d always go for the largest & stronger ones. Never the smaller ones.
Of the ungulates, wolves' preferred food is a yearling calf.
Don’t know what your thoughts are on re-introduction of wolves in Yellowstone and surrounding areas.
In general, it was a bad idea, but the execution was far worse. Controlled hunting would have been better. The introduction of a Canadian variety has also brought Hydatid disease to the area. Not good at all. The goal of the Yellowstone introduction was not about ecosystem health at anyway; it was to seed the process of destroying American cattle ranching for the benefit of investors in South American cattle ranching: Soros, Turner, Rockefellers...
I support predator management, especially where there are people, but don’t think something should be taken to extinction.
If someone can demonstrate accountability for them, no problem. I don't trust the Feds on that list at all.
Very busy these days weeding. Gotta run.
No worries, FRiend.
My point was that having something you can manage is what should be considered if you’re going to carry, and understand that it is a last resort. Energy is important, but a .38 you can shoot accurately is far better than a Casull that couldn’t fit in someone’s hand. I think a .500 SW mag is strictly a range gun you show off with, and is physically to large to be practical unless you’re fishing (i.e. not moving around much), and for fishing I’d still prefer a 12 ga w/slugs or a .45-70 carbine. Again, thats just me.
My Grandpa killed that black bear in Upper MI ages ago during the night when they were hanging around their cabin, and one was scratching at it. The cabin was remote, and no others around. He fired a few rounds from the window to scare them off and hit one, though I don’t know whether it was intentional or not. They weren’t hunting them, just wanted to get them out of there.
I shot my grizzly at ~70 yards with a .338, which is more than sufficient for them. That is my primary hunting rifle, and I’m comfortable with it. It was a sow that squared 7’, and I think the skull measured 18.75”. Not a monster, average for an interior grizzly. When, if ever, I get drawn for Kodiak brown bear I’ll probably use it there too.
I would not want to put a .22 against much of anything except rabbits, but a lot of natives still use them for big game, including moose (shoot a lot of rounds). When I lived in Canada, I had friends who would find .22 slugs between moose hides and rib bones.
A .30-30 is one of the more common guns in villages up here, more because of cost and availability of ammo, and have killed plenty of bears that get too close. Generally, most natives will leave bears alone unless they start coming into a village.
On a Kodiak goat/deer hunt a couple years ago, the packable electric bear fence we bought was FAR more effective than the heavy ‘artilery’ we had with us, and the area had tons of them.
I appologies for the sharp reply, I just think that many here get carried away with ‘bearanoia’ and some rather unreasonable firearm recommendations.
You know what I meant..and I now know what you meant. Fair enough...
We do have black bear here in OK...btw. I've not hunted them here...but plan on it in the future. Probably with a bow....Ha!
I'd love to hunt on Kodiak some day.....
FRegards,
If you send 100 men, each setting out alone, to go for a 10 mile walk out in the forests of the Rockies, or the Sierras, or the Himalayas or the Pyranees, you will have 100 men returning home without incident.
Returning home, after sending all beasts fleeing at the sound of their boots on the leaves. Songbirds will be plentiful, squirrels here and there, and once in a while a hooved creature will dart away in fear of its life.
From the scampering mouse, to the silent, cunning wolf to the unseen lumbering bear they will run from man and most will go undetected.
Send 1000 men out, and one of them might see a bear far off in the distance as it hurries away.
Send 10,000 or 100,000 and then, maybe, fate will draw one or two beyond that rare threshold of man’s wide dominion, out from under the cloak of protection we have been granted from animals, where beasts are permitted to let loose their savage and horrible blood lust.
Our dominion over the animals is no accident.
You totally missed the point.
I said each one alone—point is to illustrate low probability of animals attacking humans.
I don’t view debate as “playing.”
I must say, I agree with your last sentence.
The rest of it is really no big deal. But I tell you, my patience runs out when I hear talk of elevating animals to the level of men.
Wolf packs are the most lethal alpha-predator in North America. A decent sized pack can take down anything either by direct attack or simply exhausting the target over time. They are killing machines - not much different than our cats.
I imagine that tyrannosaurus rex used to roam my area as well, but that does not mean I would want to re-introduce them if such a thing was possible.
I don’t mind admiring them from a distance, but it is a bad idea to keep pushing them into the urban-wildlife interface in the lower 48.
I think they already have feral Wolf Packs in NYC??? They frequently attack joggers, and the city just catches and releases them. I think they are of the subspecies known as Black wolves, or Lobo Nigreos.
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