Ted Cruz vs. Donald Trump: Who's Stronger on Immigration?

To: HiTech RedNeck

Earth to Liz, Earth to Liz. H1B is not what is sucking the welfare system down and pushing the crime sky high.

I agree. A few thousand Indian IT professionals here on H1B visas aren't fundamentally transforming our culture and economy. There aren't any US cities being transformed into mini-Mumbais or mini-Calcutta. Tens of millions of illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America, however, are fundamentally transforming American society, and parts of the US Southwest are already for all intents and purposes indistinguishable from Mexico culturally and economically. Nor are these H1B workers or their kids likely to be gang members or indigent squatters.

I don't agree with Cruz's stance of increasing H1B quotas (i.e. until unemployment is effectively zero, I see no justification for increasing work visas for foreigners), but a few thousand Asian professionals with work permits are far down on the list of things to worry about when it comes to immigration.

81 posted on 08/24/2015 3:22:14 PM PDT by ek_hornbeck

I have not heard what Levin says but if he disagrees with Cruz on legal matters my money is on Cruz.

And my money goes back to Levin because Cruz ought to know better when he fantasizes that the U.S. can create a class of residents without any ability to naturalize.

That is wrong. Cruz has said no such thing. He has said that once we seal the border, stop visa overstays with a biometric ID, require businesses to use everify then we can talk about what to do with the illegals that are here. Before then, no legalization.

Can you provide a link that supports these claims, that, specifically, AFTER using E-verify and all these things (which you would think would make it pointless to legalize anyone to begin with), that THEN there will be talk about legal status for aliens? It seems the opposite is true: after "border enforcement," as nebulous as that is, there will be the same deal he offered to the Gang of Eight.

82 posted on 08/24/2015 3:22:53 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)

To: cripplecreek

Stop the bleeding then cure the disease. Wide sweeping plans are meaningless if real border security isn’t done first.

All Republican candidates play lip service to "securing the border," even Jeb Bush. The difference is that the establishment GOP candidates hold the issue hostage, their position is one of "give us amnesty for those who are here, and THEN we PROMISE to secure the border so we don't have to give amnesty again." First, there is no logical connection between the two, so why is securing the border conditional on amnesty? Second, it's obvious that once you give amnesty to the first wave, you've basically invited every subsequent wave to come here with the promise of doing the same again.

83 posted on 08/24/2015 3:24:21 PM PDT by ek_hornbeck

Trump has never said we stop all immigration nor all H-1Bs. You can have a merit based immigration system rather the kinship system we have now. The numbers could be drastically lower as suggested by Trump in his plan.

"Could be drastically lower" means squat and is similar to your earlier comment wherein you admitted you had no idea what the number would be. Moreover, you are relying on a lifelong liberal to make it happen. Name another liberal you trust. If you can't, why do you trust liberal Donald Trump? I am aware of liberal Trump's merit based system. But what does that mean? It means amnesty for "those who work hard and are productive". Trump is for amnesty.

LOL. Based on the comment, you even failed to read the article of this thread. Cruz doesn't consider legalization of the lawbreakers, allowing them to stay and work here, the object of their crime, as amnesty according to him because there is no path to citizenship.

This is Clintonian akin to defining what the meaning of "is" is. It is also a dumb solution because the courts wouldn't allow second class citizenship and the Dems would have a great political issue. The fact is that Cruz is trying to deceive you. He supports amnesty but uses his own definition.

If anyone has been deceitful it is lifelong liberal Donald Trump pretending to be conservative, and you have fallen for it by completely ignoring his long liberal past and buying into his campaign rhetoric. Do you always believe what a candidate says on the campaign trail when it is100% antithetical to his long and well-documented history? That is what you must do to support lifelong liberal Donald Trump. Again, name another liberal you trust.

Mr. Cruz said recent polling indicated that people outside Washington support some reform, including legal status without citizenship. He said he was against naturalization because it rewarded lawbreakers and was unfair to legal immigrants. It also perpetuates illegal crossings, he added.

Senator Cruz was being practical, something liberal Donald Trump is not. Please explain how anyone is going to round up 10s of millions of ILLEGAL aliens and deport them. Your hero said he would, how?

Besides barring citizenship while instituting some level of legalization for those here already, Mr. Cruz has proposed increasing the number of green cards awarded annually, to 1.35 million from 675,000. He also wants to eliminate the per-country limit that he said left applicants from countries like Mexico, China and India hamstrung when they tried to gain legal entry to this country.

I'm not thrilled with his plan. But unlike liberal Donald Trump who says things to fool the gullible, Senator Cruz is being realistic. And even in spite of it, he is still the most conservative candidate in the race, far more so than your liberal candidate Donald Trump. Again, name any other liberal you trust. My guess is you can't. Yet you are putting your faith in lifelong liberal Donald Trump? lol! Wow.

84 posted on 08/24/2015 3:35:15 PM PDT by South40 (Falling for Trump's rhetoric while ignoring his liberal past is incredibly foolish)

To: South40; kabar

You believe liberal Donald Trump will send ILLEGALs home; how he will make that happen? Will he send out goon squads to round them up? How will he know who is ILLEGAL and who is not? Can you explain how your liberal candidate proposes to accomplish his lofty goal? You ought your liberal credentials again by raising the specter of Hitler's Brown shirts (the good squads) rounding people up, and then by making it sound like it's so difficult if not impossible to even find an illegal. This is pretty well in line with your past indifference on this forum to your candidate supporting amnesty... and yet, here you are, going after Trump as a liberal?
By the way, to answer your question on how to do it, we can just do it the way we did last time. From a recent thread I posted:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3328311/posts

I can't help but to notice you didn't post in that thread, even though it has prominently been on the sidebar.

85 posted on 08/24/2015 3:51:33 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)

To: South40; kabar

You reveal your liberal credentials again by raising the specter of Hitler's Brown shirts (the good squads) rounding people up, and then by making it sound like it's so difficult if not impossible to even find an illegal. This is pretty well in line with your past indifference on this forum to your candidate supporting amnesty... and yet, here you are, going after Trump as a liberal?

By the way, to answer your question on how to do it, we can just do it the way we did last time. From a recent thread I posted:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3328311/posts

I can't help but to notice you didn't post in that thread, even though it has prominently been on the sidebar.

86 posted on 08/24/2015 3:52:19 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)

"Could be drastically lower" means squat and is similar to your earlier comment wherein you admitted you had no idea what the number would be.

Trump's plan contains the answer, I even underlined it for you, and allow record immigration levels to subside to more moderate historical averages The historical average for the period 1925 to 1965 was 195,000 a year compared to 1.1 million a year today.

I am aware of liberal Trump's merit based system. But what does that mean? It means amnesty for "those who work hard and are productive". Trump is for amnesty.

No, this is the system that countries like Canada and Australia have. We import hundreds of thousands of legal permanent immigrants who lack even a high school degree. Do we really need more high school dropouts?

Now you are sounding like the liberals. The proponents of amnesty are wont to create the false choice between a blanket amnesty and mass deportation of 12 to 20 million illegal aliens. In reality, we have other choices and alternatives that don’t reward people who have broken our laws with the right to stay and work here and an eventual path to citizenship. The 12 to 20 million illegal aliens did not enter this country overnight and they will not leave overnight. Attrition through enforcement works. We have empirical data from Georgia, Oklahoma, and Arizona proving that it does.

You obviously did not read Trump's plan as it pertains to the enforcement of our laws. Here is another excerpt:

2. A nation without laws is not a nation. Laws passed in accordance with our Constitutional system of government must be enforced.

America will only be great as long as America remains a nation of laws that lives according to the Constitution. No one is above the law. The following steps will return to the American people the safety of their laws, which politicians have stolen from them:

Triple the number of ICE officers. As the President of the ICE Officers’ Council explained in Congressional testimony: “Only approximately 5,000 officers and agents within ICE perform the lion’s share of ICE’s immigration mission…Compare that to the Los Angeles Police Department at approximately 10,000 officers. Approximately 5,000 officers in ICE cover 50 states, Puerto Rico and Guam, and are attempting to enforce immigration law against 11 million illegal aliens already in the interior of the United States. Since 9-11, the U.S. Border Patrol has tripled in size, while ICE’s immigration enforcement arm, Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO), has remained at relatively the same size.” This will be funded by accepting the recommendation of the Inspector General for Tax Administration and eliminating tax credit payments to illegal immigrants.

Nationwide e-verify. This simple measure will protect jobs for unemployed Americans.

Mandatory return of all criminal aliens. The Obama Administration has released 76,000 aliens from its custody with criminal convictions since 2013 alone. All criminal aliens must be returned to their home countries, a process which can be aided by canceling any visas to foreign countries which will not accept their own criminals, and making it a separate and additional crime to commit an offense while here illegally.

Detention—not catch-and-release. Illegal aliens apprehended crossing the border must be detained until they are sent home, no more catch-and-release.

Defund sanctuary cities. Cut-off federal grants to any city which refuses to cooperate with federal law enforcement.

Enhanced penalties for overstaying a visa. Millions of people come to the United States on temporary visas but refuse to leave, without consequence. This is a threat to national security. Individuals who refuse to leave at the time their visa expires should be subject to criminal penalties; this will also help give local jurisdictions the power to hold visa overstays until federal authorities arrive. Completion of a visa tracking system – required by law but blocked by lobbyists – will be necessary as well.

Cooperate with local gang task forces. ICE officers should accompany local police departments conducting raids of violent street gangs like MS-13 and the 18th street gang, which have terrorized the country. All illegal aliens in gangs should be apprehended and deported. Again, quoting Chris Crane: “ICE Officers and Agents are forced to apply the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) Directive, not to children in schools, but to adult inmates in jails. If an illegal-alien inmate simply claims eligibility, ICE is forced to release the alien back into the community. This includes serious criminals who have committed felonies, who have assaulted officers, and who prey on children…ICE officers should be required to place detainers on every illegal alien they encounter in jails and prisons, since these aliens not only violated immigration laws, but then went on to engage in activities that led to their arrest by police; ICE officers should be required to issue Notices to Appear to all illegal aliens with criminal convictions, DUI convictions, or a gang affiliation; ICE should be working with any state or local drug or gang task force that asks for such assistance.”

End birthright citizenship. This remains the biggest magnet for illegal immigration. By a 2:1 margin, voters say it’s the wrong policy, including Harry Reid who said “no sane country” would give automatic citizenship to the children of illegal immigrants.

Senator Cruz was being practical, something liberal Donald Trump is not. Please explain how anyone is going to round up 10s of millions of ILLEGAL aliens and deport them. Your hero said he would, how?

Deportation is part of our laws and there will always be deportation for people who enter illegally or violate our laws.

The U.S. deported 386,473 immigrants in each of the first four years of the Obama administration. Basically, in four years Obama removed 13 times more illegal immigrants -- including criminals -- than all the arrests by FDR of legal Japanese Americans/immigrants, and few people even noticed.

In the ten years starting with 2004, ICE deported a total of 3.3 million immigrants. Half of those were "interior arrests"; meaning the immigrants were picked up while already deep into the United States. The streets of America hardly looked like a "police state" when this took place.

Annual deportation levels are now more than double than during the second term of Bill Clinton, and it is tenfold the poor 39,000 annual deportations of the first five years of the 1990s. Doubling the deportation levels from the current levels is within reach and would take only a decade to remove 11 million; many of which -- here on expired visas -- would leave on their own if a fair, reentry system is set-up.

ICE has a budget of $6 billion. Doubling it to $12 billion to assure a doubling of deportations is hardly against the grain of limited government. Besides, the cost of illegal immigration is much higher for the federal government than the cost of deportations.

I'm not thrilled with his plan. But unlike liberal Donald Trump who says things to fool the gullible, Senator Cruz is being realistic.

No, he is being responsive to his corporate paymasters. You are the one who is gullible.

87 posted on 08/24/2015 3:59:37 PM PDT by kabar

We are talking about his agenda. They could reject the repeal of Obamacare. Ronald Reagan approved a "one-time" amnesty in 1986. It originated in Congress and became the law of the land. Obama has bypassed Congress, which is illegal. Cruz's "legal process" is amnesty if approved by Congress.

This is completely garbled reasoning lacking any support.

88 posted on 08/24/2015 3:59:42 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (The fourth estate is the fifth column.)

No, he is being responsive to his corporate paymasters. You are the one who is gullible.

You call me gullible yet it is you who has fallen for the campaign rhetoric of a lifelong liberal pretending to be a conservative.

I couldn't help but notice that you did not respond to my question even though I asked it 3x.

I will ask it a 4th x. Name another liberal you trust and if you can't, why do you trust lifelong liberal Donald Trump?

89 posted on 08/24/2015 4:08:49 PM PDT by South40 (Falling for Trump's rhetoric while ignoring his liberal past is incredibly foolish)

I found your response to be gibberish lacking any logical consistency. You use the arguments that Cruz isn't a king and that Congress could reject his proposals that you may question. My point is that Congress can reject proposals even though you may like them, like repealing Obamacare.

The bottom line is that Cruz supports amnesty.

90 posted on 08/24/2015 4:12:19 PM PDT by kabar

I will ask it a 4th x. Name another liberal you trust and if you can't, why do you trust lifelong liberal Donald Trump?

I have equal distrust for liberals and RINOs. I have stopped holding my nose to vote for the lesser of two evils. I don't care what label is applied to Trump. His immigration position paper is the best ever released by a Presidential candidate in my memory. And immigration is the defining issue of our time. Our survival is at stake. It may already be too late, but Trump's plan at least addresses the third rail of American politics, legal immigration.

And it is not just an American problem. Europe is facing the same threat as are all developed countries. The teeming masses of the Third World are trying to escape the hopelessness and corruption of their squalid existences. They will risk everything to get here.

91 posted on 08/24/2015 4:32:18 PM PDT by kabar

We can agree that ILLEGAL immigration is an enormous problem. I don't know where you live but I am so close to the US/Mexican border that I can climb a hill behind my house and see it. Moreover, ILLEGAL immigration has all but destroyed my business as I refuse to hire them even though my competitors will. But I do not trust a liberal like Trump.

"I have stopped holding my nose to vote for the lesser of two evils."

But you will be voting for the worst of two evils if you vote for Trump, a lifelong liberal. Again, name one other liberal you trust. Apparently you can't yet you trust Trump because you have bought his campaign rhetoric. Wow.

"I don't care what label is applied to Trump"

It's not a label it is a description based on what we know about the man, his history if you will.

This is what you are defending.

1. Donald Trump has been a liberal Democrat most of his adult life, registering as a Republican as recently as 2009.

2. Trump has contributed generously to some of the most far left democrats in politics including Hillary Clinton (D-NY), Charles Schumer (D-NY), Terry McAuliffe (D-VA) Anthony Weiner (D-NY), Ted Kennedy (D-MA), Harry Reid (D-NV), Governor Ed Rendell (D-PA), California state attorney general Kamala Harris (D-CA), Chicago mayor Rahm Emanuel (D-IL), and the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee and the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee.

3. Trump is a crony capitalist, explaining his large contributions to democrats as a necessary tool to conducting business. He apparently believes buying the votes of politicians is an acceptable way of doing business. That, by definition is political corruption. But liberal Donald Trump supports it.

4. Trump supported the ban on "assault weapons", even though there is no such thing as an "assault weapon". Far left anti-gun democrats wanted to ban gun ownership completely. Unable to accomplish that goal they created the term "assault weapon" and applied their own definition for the term so they could ban guns based solely on cosmetic appearances. Being the gullible liberal that he is, Trump both fell for the scheme and supported the ban.

5. As recently as 2013 Trump praised former NYC mayor Michael Bloomberg for "Putting his money where his mouth is" in trying to take guns from law-abiding citizens. Michael Bloomberg has spent tens of millions in his quest to disarm America and Donald Trump praised him for it.

6. Trump has been pro-abortion until which time he flirted with running for president. He now claims he no longer is. Believe his campaign rhetoric if you will, but his history says otherwise.

7. While he may claim to be an opponent of Obamacare, Trump is an advocate of single-payer socialized healthcare similar to what is in place in Canada. Yes, Trump supports the worst version of socialized healthcare. He has said, "The Canadian plan also helps Canadians live longer and healthier than America. We need, as a nation, to reexamine the single-payer plan, as many individual states are doing. While we work out details of a new single-payer plan, there are a number of ways to make the health care system now in place work more efficiently."

8. Trump believes in using eminent domain for the taking of private property from US citizens for his personal gain. He proved this when he tried exploiting such laws to take elderly widow Vera Coking's property so he could build a parking lot for limousines. Fortunately, the widow prevailed. He also said he supported the United States Supreme Court's Kelo decision which resulted in the taking of private land from a private party so Pfizer Pharmaceuticals could build a plant. That family lost their land and to date nothing has been built on it. It should be noted that conservatives Rehnquist, Thomas and Scalia all voted against this rotten scheme. Liberals on the court supported it, as did liberal Donald Trump.

9. Trump has said the economy does better under democrat control (we're $18 trillion in debt and climbing thanks to the dems). He also said George W. Bush was the worst president this country has ever had. Worse than the lying rapist Bill Clinton? In the mind of Donald Trump, that answer is YES because he has also said of the past four presidents, Bill Clinton was his favorite.

10. As of 2009, Donald Trump is a registered Republican. But in an interview with CNN's Wolfe Blitzer, Trump said, "I probably identify more as a democrat." His record above lends credence to that comment. You are supporting and putting your trust in a liberal.

Summed up, while Donald Trump may be saying and doing things that appeal to conservatives, he is a lifelong liberal democrat who only now claims to be conservative. That considered, he is just like any other liberal in that he cannot be trusted.

92 posted on 08/24/2015 4:48:52 PM PDT by South40 (Falling for Trump's rhetoric while ignoring his liberal past is incredibly foolish)

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Can you provide a link that supports these claims,

Here is the link:
http://www.numbersusa.com/content/elections/races/presidential/ted-cruz.html

You are blowing a lot of smoke here about Ted Cruz who has been conservative all his life and has acted completely on his principles in Texas and in the Senate. Then you have complete confidence for Trump who it has been documented by many on this thread has had far-left positions on immigration, abortion, government run medical care. You and the other Trump-loving, Cruz-bashers sure smell like Democrat trolls.

93 posted on 08/24/2015 5:13:59 PM PDT by fifedom

We can agree that ILLEGAL immigration is an enormous problem.

And legal immigration is an even bigger problem. Much bigger.

At this point I don't care about what labels you put on them. Is Jeb Bush a liberal? I trust someone like Joe Lieberman. He has some integrity. I bought Trump's position paper authored by Jeff Sessions. It took a hell of a lot courage to put it out. I have worked on the immigration issue for over 8 years lobbying on the Hill and in Richmond. We have been waiting for a Presidential candidate that expresses such views. We supported Dave Brat because he dared to say something similar and we were able to take Eric Cantor down.

This is what you are defending.

I really don't care what his prior record has been. I do know that he had the judgment to select Jeff Sessions as an adviser. I do know that he brings an energy and fight unlike any of the wusses we have seen on either side. I do know that he is not part of the political elites of both parties that are in the process of destroying the country. I do know that he loves this country unlike the current occupant of the WH. And he is a cheerleader for America.

At this point at age 72, as someone has worn the uniform as well as serving as a diplomat, I am ready to throw all the bums out. Trump can do no worse than those who inhabit Congress and the WH for the past 27 years. Were you happy with the "passionate conservative," George Bush or with the current GOP congressional leadership?

Our country goes deeper in debt ensuring that our children and grandchildren will live in a declining America that has been Balkanized by identity politics. The Dems are becoming the permanent majority party due to changing demographics fueled by mass immigration. We have been betrayed by our leaders. So now I am supposed to scorn Trump because he is too liberal. I want competence and energy. I want a leader.

The GOP has lost the popular vote in five out of the last six Presidential elections. We continue to do the same thing and expect different results. So who has the leadership and executive ability to challenge Trump? And I sure as Hell don't want another Senator in the WH.

I don't trust any of them, including those Reps who claim to be conservatives.

94 posted on 08/24/2015 5:55:57 PM PDT by kabar

You are blowing a lot of smoke here about Ted Cruz who has been conservative all his life and has acted completely on his principles in Texas and in the Senate.

No "smoke" blowing at all. Your link doesn't even discuss Cruz's amendment to the gang of eight bill which would have provided for legal status. You asserted that Cruz would do the bio-metric stuff, E-Verify and other things before he'd discuss legalization-- but that's nowhere in the link, and since that very link even includes details of what he would have included WITH the Gang of Eight law, it's more likely to conclude that all his "enforcement" measures will co-exist side by side his legalization measures, despite his recent statements that he'd rather not talk about what he'll do after "securing the border."

95 posted on 08/24/2015 6:01:52 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Cruz should know better being from Texas. Trump is from NY.

That’s part of the reason Trump gets a pass for not being fully schooled on the issue.

96 posted on 08/25/2015 1:55:47 PM PDT by ObamahatesPACoal (Savage BLASTS Megyn Kelly, Fox News Over Treatment Of Trump)

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

No “smoke” blowing at all. Your link doesn’t even discuss Cruz’s amendment to the gang of eight bill which would have provided for legal status.

That’s baloney, it does discuss it, you just did not read it.

OK, I gave you a link. Now you give me a link that describes in detail how Trump is going to get rid of birthright citizenship. And I do not mean him hollering to a crowd, “we’re going to get rid of birthright citizenship and it is going to be great!”

How exactly is he going to do it? Constitutional amendment? Act of Congress? Dictatorial decree?

Show me the details!!

97 posted on 08/25/2015 1:59:49 PM PDT by fifedom

hat’s baloney, it does discuss it, you just did not read it.

I read it, and it does not discuss the fact that Cruz supports legalization, albeit "without a pathway to citizenship."

The fact that it fails to do so makes that website pathetically useless.

OK, I gave you a link. Now you give me a link that describes in detail how Trump is going to get rid of birthright citizenship.

As soon as you show me Cruz's detailed position paper on immigration.

Oh wait, he doesn't have one. Bummer.

How exactly is he going to do it? Constitutional amendment? Act of Congress? Dictatorial decree?

No Constitutional Amendment necessary. The 14th has been improperly interpreted.

98 posted on 08/25/2015 5:25:39 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

OK, I gave you a link. Now you give me a link that describes in detail how Trump is going to get rid of birthright citizenship.

Nothing....

You and Trump are both BS’ers. You want everyone else to give detailed responses but you have nothing. All Trump does is get up in front of crowds and say the first things that come to his mind. All you do is troll and smear other candidates but you cannot back up anything you are saying.

99 posted on 08/25/2015 7:02:02 PM PDT by fifedom

The article verifies everything I have been saying. You just don't want to acknowledge it.

100 posted on 08/25/2015 7:09:26 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)

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