Skip to comments.Young Radiocarbon in Old Samples
Posted on 11/01/2017 10:01:36 AM PDT by fishtank
Old-earth advocates often claim that dating methods, including radiocarbon, show the earth must be older than the Bible says. But is this true? This chart reflects the radiocarbon that still lingers inside 60 carbon-containing Earth materials collected from representative rock layers. Each result confronts millions-of-years age assignments for those layers.
(Excerpt) Read more at icr.org ...
I skimed the article so I may have missed something. How old is the earth? I didn’t see 6,000 years.
Make that skimmed.
Ever hear of this thing called groundwater? It doesn’t take a flood to get water into below-ground samples.
The main problem with a young earth is that it requires that God has to have created a “Truman Show” sphere that shows us things that are older than 6000 years, at all the wavelengths we can observe. This could be logically interpreted as God’s lying about the things that can be discovered from observing the universe He created.
The problem with the Big Bang is that it requires infinities in the created universe.
There are two creation stories in Genesis for a reason. The first describes the creation of the universe out of nothing from the beginning. This includes the creation of all the “types” and their initial instantiations. There is no “which came first, the chicken or the egg?” problem because the Creator of the Universe created a “type of chicken” that reproduces with eggs.
The second describes the creation of Adam and Eve who start the Creator of the Universe’s salvation plan for the creatures that He created. So we can have an old universe and a young salvation plan at the same time. We will first focus on the creation of the universe out of nothing from the beginning over what we would measure as a long time.
This concept is supported by the Scriptures, and is also supported by the writings of the Hebrew sages:
According to the master Kabbalists, Rabbi Isaac of Acco, when counting the years of these [7000 year] cycles, one must not use an ordinary physical year, but rather, a divine year. The Midrash says that each divine day is a thousand years, basing this on the verse, A thousand years in Your sight are as but yesterday (Psalms 90: 4). Since each year contains 365 1/4 days, a divine year would be 365,250 years long. According to this, each cycle of seven thousand divine years would consist of 2,556,750,000 earthly years. This figure of two-and-a-half billion years is very close to the scientific estimate as to the length of time that life has existed on earth. If we assume that the seventh cycle began with the Biblical account of creation, then this would have occurred when the universe was 15,340,500,000 years old. This is very close to the scientific estimate that the expansion of the universe began some fifteen billion years ago.
Kaplan, Aryeh (2004-03-15). Sefer Yetzirah: The Book of Creation in Theory and Practice (Kindle Locations 3552-3559). Red Wheel Weiser. Kindle Edition.
During the six days of creation described in the first chapter, G-d did not actually create the world, but rather, created the ingredients which would allow the world to develop. It thus refers to the creation of all matter, along with space and time. It was during these six days that G-d brought the universe into being from absolute nothingness. After these six days of creation, G-d allowed the universe to develop by itself, renewing His creation each seven thousand divine years or 2.5 billion earthly years. All the laws of nature and the properties of matter had been fixed for all time, as it is written, He has established them forever; He has made a decree which shall not be transgressed (Psalms 148: 6). It is similarly written, Whatever G-d decrees shall be forever; nothing shall be added to it, and nothing shall be taken away (Ecclesiastes 3: 14).
Kaplan, Aryeh (2004-03-15). Sefer Yetzirah: The Book of Creation in Theory and Practice (Kindle Locations 3564-3572). Red Wheel Weiser. Kindle Edition.
Rabbi Acco made this calculation, based on the Torah, sometime between 1250 AD and 1340 AD more than 300 years before Sir Isaac Newton was born, and at least 600 years before Edwin Hubble proposed his theory of the expanding universe. The reason aligning the start of the seventh cycle of divine years with the second creation story is based on the rabbinical analysis described in Sefer Yetzirah: The Book of Creation in Theory and Practice. Suffice it to say, but the rabbis could not have been adjusting their analysis to conform the yet to be determined modern scientific value!
So this is our first measurement. More than 600 years ago, the Holy Scriptures, as analyzed by people who really cared about finding the truth in them, reveal the age of the universe we can observe today.
In the twentieth century AD, it became obvious that energy and energy states were quantized and could be emitted or absorbed only in discrete units. However, the theories and equations that were developed regarded space and time as continuous and thus infinitely divisible. As a result of not having a minimum space-time unit all of these theories postulate infinities within the physical universe that have not been observed.
The current Standard Model for Quantum Mechanics compensates for this through a process called renormalization in which one subtracts a big infinity from a smaller infinity to get a measured answer. The Big Bang Theory says the universe started as a singularity, then the laws of physics were suspended for a while as everything expanded at faster than the speed of light. Here the magic happens is clearly only a scientific theory because it is proposed by scientists.
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Daniel 12:4)
Since we are near the time of the end, knowledge has increased! The Unified Field Theory proposed by Burkhard Heim (1925-2001) is a completely discrete theory that is based on the quantization of areas in multiple dimensions. It treats the universe as an accounting system, which is clearly in consonance with the Holy Scriptures, as we shall see. Originally proposed with six dimensions; it was later expanded into 12 dimensions to fully account for Quantum Mechanics. Heim calculated the mass values of the elemental particles using the 6-dimensional formulation and six experimentally measured fundamental constants, such as the speed of light in a vacuum, and arrived at values that were in good (!) agreement with observations.
Burkhard Heim arrived at a description of the beginning from the currently observed universe using logic and mathematics. He described the process he used in a presentation to the scientists at Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm (MBB) in Ottoburnn, Germany on November 25, 1976. An annotated transcript of the presentation and an English translation was produced by Olar Posdzech, Jim Graham, John Reed and Wilfried Kugel between 2000 and 2009. In this presentation, Heim derived the fundamental quantum of area which he called a metron.
In 1992, Tamar Auerbach explained the cosmology of Heims Theory as follows:
In Heims theory both the metronic size, t, and the largest diameter D depend on the age of the universe. The dependence is such that D is expanding and t is contracting, so that D was smaller in the past and t was larger. It stands to reason that at one time in the distant past the surface area of a sphere of diameter D in our 3-dimensional world was equal to the size of t. This instant marks the origin of the universe and of time.
The mathematical relation between D and t is not simple, so that 3 different values of D are found to satisfy the criterion that the area of a sphere of diameter D be equal to t at the beginning of time. Evidently, the universe started as a trinity of spheres, whose diameters turn out to be (in meters):
D1 = 0.90992 m, D2 = 1.06426 m, D3 = 3.70121 m.
This trinity of spheres has important bearings on the structure of elementary particles.
From the first moment the universe began to expand, though at a slower rate than is presently predicted on the basis of the red shift of distant galaxies. Heims theory results in a present age of the universe approximately equal to 5.45 x 10^107 years, and a diameter D of about 6.37 x 10^109 light years. During most of its existence the universe consisted of an empty metronic lattice, whose metrons kept getting smaller as the universe grew larger.
Eventually, metrons became small enough for matter to come into existence. This may have occurred some 15-40 billion (10^9) years ago, at which time matter was created throughout the volume of the universe. Hence, according to Heim matter did not originate very soon after a big bang explosion but more uniformly in scattered fire-cracker like bursts, perhaps of galactic proportions. Spontaneous uniform creation of matter, coupled with the partly attractive and partly repulsive force of gravity mentioned in Section 3 resulted in the observed large-scale galactic structure of the universe. Creation of matter continues to this day, though on a very much reduced scale.
Heims Theory of Elementary Particle Structures, T. Auerbach and Illobrand von Ludwiger published by the Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 6, No. 3, pp. 217-231, 1992
Heims Theory then starts in an analogous way to the way the Hebrew Sages explain it:
And He created His universe with three books (Sepharim), with text (Sepher) with number (Sephar) and with communication (Sippur).
Kaplan, Aryeh (2004-03-15). Sefer Yetzirah: The Book of Creation in Theory and Practice (Kindle Locations 445-449). Red Wheel Weiser. Kindle Edition.
Now the Sefer Yetzirah is said to be part of the oral Torah, but we dont know for sure, so it should be treated as commentary. So we must look for a pattern in the Torah that matches Heims Theory in order to consider Heims theory a match for the first creation story. The amazing thing is that the Torahs description of the creation of the Nation of Israel fits the pattern of these three spheres (books) and the organization of the dimensions used in Extended Heim Theory.
If we simply number the 12 sons of Jacob in the order they were born, we get the following:
x1 Gen 29:32 So Leah conceived and bore a son, and she called his name Reuben; for she said, The LORD has surely seen my affliction. Now therefore, my husband will love me.
x2 Gen 29:33 Then she conceived again and bore a son, and said, Because the LORD has heard that I am unloved, He has therefore given me this son also. And she called his name Simeon.
x3 Gen 29:34 She conceived again and bore a son, and said, Now this time my husband will become attached to me, because I have borne him three sons. Therefore his name was called Levi.
x4 Gen 29:35 And she conceived again and bore a son, and said, Now I will praise Yahweh. Therefore she called his name Judah. Then she stopped bearing.
x5 Gen 30:6 Then Rachel said, God has judged my case; and He has also heard my voice and given me a son. Therefore she called his name Dan.
x6 Gen 30:8 Rachel said, With great wrestlings I have wrestled with my sister, and indeed I have prevailed. So she called him Naphtali.
x7 Gen 30:11 Then Leah said, A troop comes! So she called his name Gad.
x8 Gen 30:13 Then Leah said, I am happy, for the daughters will call me blessed. So she called his name Asher.
x9 Gen 30:18 Leah said, God has given me my hire [wages] because I have given my maid to my husband. So she called his name Issachar.
x10 Gen 30:20b Leah said, ...now my husband will dwell with me, because I have borne him six sons. So she called his name Zebulun.
x11 Gen 30:24 So she [Rebecca] called his name Joseph, and said, The LORD shall add to me another son.
x12 Gen 35:18 As her soul was departing (for she died), she [Rebecca] called his name Ben-Oni [son of my sorrow]; but his father called him Ben-Jamin.
There probably is some significance to the names themselves, but at this point I have only looked at the birth order and grouping related to the dimensions used in Extended Heim Theory.
Leahs first three sons, Reuben, Simion, and Levi, represent the R3 (x,y,z) Spatial Dimensions. Her fourth son, Judah, represents T! (t) Time. Note that this associates the genealogy of Jesus with time!
Rachels maid, Bihah, two sons, Dan and Naphtali, represent S2 (x5, x6) the Structure dimensions. These are the dimensions that provide the electromagnetic force. Heims initial theory used only these six dimensions.
Leahs maid, Zilpha, responds with two sons, Gad and Asher, who represent I2 (x7,x8) the Information dimensions.
The next four dimensions are called the God Dimensions because these dimensions contains structures that steer the events of the other dimensions. They are associated with Jacobs two wives. Leahs last two sons, Issachar and Zebulun, and Rachels two sons, Joseph and Benjamin represent G4 (x9,x10,x11,x12).
Once I recognized this pattern, it was apparent that the Three Spheres (Books) were symbolized by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
What are the chances of this happening if the Holy Scriptures are not the Word of YHWH, the True and Living God, Creator of the Universe?
The Earth is likely aged in the order of billions. This investigation reviews and challenges radiocarbon dating accuracy. Challenging scientific results is HEALTHY.
Often, science becomes skewed by political views or by ego-centric behaviors. The so-called science of evolution is riddled with contradictions, and what’s worse is the reaction of those that tout the defective scientific results. Instead of accepting objective criticism and evidence contradicting herd mentality quasi-accepted results, the science culprits may tend to circle the wagons and attempt to smear, dismiss, slander their critics.
That happens now with AGW ‘Climate Change’.
I do not accept a six-thousand-year-old Earth as evidenced by biblical scripture. But I do not see the ICR people basing beliefs of Earth’s age on misconstrued interpretations of Genesis. I have read Genesis a few times and find no inconsistencies with an Earth that can be billions of years old. One point I use is that Adam’s age was possibly measured from expulsion, not from creation. I also fail to see how the heavens and the firmaments were created in 7 ‘days’ when a day is relative to the body spinning on its axis. In other words, the words of scripture are not specific and are not pinned to hard reference points, hence no accurate timeline can be constructed. Thus, I conclude scripture is not inconsistent, and therefore not false. Is it ‘True’? That’s a matter of belief. But nothing in it is unequivocally taking the value ‘False’.
Kudos then to ISR for conducting tests to verify and validate the dogma of radiocarbon dating.
Before the flood of Noah, who was 600 years old when the flood came the oxygen levels were different than after the flood. Also, the years were 360 day years which are synchronized with a 30 day moon cycle which the feasts of Hashem are connected to perfectly. The correct timeline calandar starts with day 1 or tishri 1 for the creation. When G-d created plant life the sun had to shine on the earth or photosynthesis could not happen and the green things would perish quickly. Just wait for the 6th day to be completed and see for yourself.
I noticed you’re still here ...
You are correct. He did tell us what He did and He even told us how He did it. It is not a “Truman Show” world. It is far more awesome that that.
The Tanakh and particularly the Torah is a holographic record of the boundary conditions the Ein Sof established for all the events in the Universe focusing on the 7000 year salvation plan. The Gematria and Equal Letter Skip (ELS) coding tell us of the importance of the ending of Hebrew year 5777 and the start of Hebrew year 5778.
For me, the key verse is not in the Torah, but in the Tweets of King Solomon. Wisdom is explaining the creation of the world, and she says:
PRO8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
God. KING JAMES BIBLE TOUCH - KJV (Kindle Locations 26322-26323). Kindle Edition.
This verse tells us that the Ein Sof used the Laws of Form revealed to George Spencer-Brown around 1957 to create the Universe by making the first distinction between inside and outside, i.e., drawing a circle on the face of the deep. This is why Genesis starts with Bet.
The Law of Forms provide the foundation for the Universe as an accounting system based on complex whole numbers. It explains why naming is important to the Ein Sof. Introduces the concept of the cross, as in crossing a boundary. It explains memory (and Elohim remembered Noah), oscillation (there was evening and there was morning), and mapping. Everything needed to support the Salvation Plan: And Abraham believed Elohim and it was accounted to him as righteousness.
Since it takes at least two dimension to form a boundary, the Law of Forms explains why Burkhard Heim, in 1948, assumed quantization of area, he was able to drive a seventh degree equation which describe the Universe as starting as three spheres, or as the Sages say, three books.
So we stand at the point in history when knowledge has increased so that we can understand how the Ein Sof made the world, and that it is quite literal to say that He did it by writing the Torah and that the Tanakh records the final vessel that the Potter crafted.
DAN12:04 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
God. KING JAMES BIBLE TOUCH - KJV (Kindle Locations 35487-35488). Kindle Edition.
The Book of Daniel has been unsealed. The wise would do well to heed its prophetic warnings.
The half life of C14 is such that it cannot give reliable results at more than 50,000 years so any C14 found in supposedly older once living materials is contamination. Contamination is controlled for in testing. Isotopes used for determining age must have decay rates (half lives) appropriate to the material being tested.
This "problem" only exists if you take a very simple, narrow-minded approach to thinking about things. From our limited, mortal point of view, when something is created, that is the start of its existence in time. It doesn't exist in the past, it only exists now and in the future. Makes perfect sense given our daily experiences. However, for a being that operates outside of our conceptions of time there is no such limitation. Why couldn't something be created that will extend both into the past as well as the future? Or why, when something is created, couldn't it have been created with a past? I'm not trying to claim I know the details of God's creation of the universe. But I am saying that I am humble enough to realize that it could be, and quite certainly is, something that extends well beyond my comprehension. I think it is quite possible that the Earth was created 6,000 years ago and it has fossils that are millions of years old. Those thoughts only conflict when you assume that all things, including the creator, are limited by the direction of time.
Neither of your statements is true ...
During the six days of creation described in the first chapter, G-d did not actually create the world, but rather, created the ingredients which would allow the world to develop.
Genesis 1:20 says He created living things ... not the ingredients that would develop into living things.
Tell me ... do you believe the Ten Commandments are to be taken literally? Does your rabbi you are quoting understand the Ten Commandments literally?
That is the dirty little secret isn't it?
Show me where God created anything other than the sun, moon and stars for observing time and I might agree with you.
No where in the Bible does it say how old the earth may be. No where in the Bible can you determine the earths age.
BTW the Bible doesn’t mention earths age nor give it as 6,000 years, that’s a made up number.
How then do they determine the % contribution of contamination levels for items less than 50k years of age?
Do they assume contamination is consistent, varies by time, or estimate it based on the location from which it is pulled and the sample matter in question?
If such an assumption is made then the assumption can be challenged. But the assumption must also be determined and documented for each individual sample tested based on the potential for contamination of the sample type, environmental conditions the sample experienced through time, possible contamination events, etc.
Thats a made-up number that one often sees. Also given as the date for the Garden of Eden.
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