So You Want Wind Turbines But Don’t Want Copper Mines?

American Experiment ^ | April 11, 2018 | Isaac Orr

[poconopundit]

Somebody should do a study to calculate how much energy is “wasted” building these bird killers. And that includes all expense of buying right of ways and cables to their remote locations.

We may discover the net balance of energy saved is zero or negative.

[chimera]

Another huge cost not normally included in the accounting is the build-out of transmission infrastructure. Every windmill is essentially a node in the grid management system. There are hundreds of miles of ridgelines in Vermont that have been clear-cut simply for service roads to construct and maintain both the windmills and transmission lines.

[Hardastarboard]

LOL!! I’ll take what happens after you see a picture of Hillary Clinton nude for $500, Alex.

[rlmorel]

That’s too bad, because it is a beautiful state.

Run by whack-job Leftists.

[Wuli]

Upon this information the “renewables” crowd should be reconsidering how their desires don’t quite mesh with reality. They won’t. That would spoil their fantasy that THEY are doing the “right” thing.

[GingisK]

Wind. Isn’t that a hoot?

[IncPen]

Wind power...

[dila813]

One of these days we are going to have to recycle all of these beasts when they figure out they are worth more as scrap than producing electricity.

[houeto]

...but the people who champion renewable energy, but oppose copper mining in Minnesota should have to reconcile the inherent contradictions in their positions.

It is impossible to reconcile liberals' 'feelings' with logic. I know, I wasted keystrokes because all of us are fully aware of that fact. I guess the author doesn't know yet.

[Svartalfiar]

So you seem to actually know a decent bit about the wind turbines. Why do they require so much more copper and rare-earths than other power sources? Wouldn’t the majority of the structure be the same? The only big difference is that it’s wind/blades turning the turbine, instead of water flow or steam? Sure, the structure needs to hold up, but that’s not a rare-earths usage, and the only thing I can think of for copper is just in the cabling? Since each tower is so spaced out?

[ProtectOurFreedom]

Why do they require so much more copper and rare-earths than other power sources? Wouldn’t the majority of the structure be the same?

That is an excellent question and I was pondering the very same thing. Two answers came to mind:

1. I assume that economies of scale are terrible for small generators (3 MW) vs central station generators in the 1,000 MW class. Normally economies of scale are the result of the VOLUME of a device going up much faster than the SURFACE AREA of a device. It's the surface area that drives price because it is proportional to weight of the machine. The capacity of the machine is proportional to the volume. This is true of process devices, but I'm not sure how well it holds for generators.
2. You guessed my second thought...you have 333 x 3 MW machines spaced out all over Kingdom Come to equal the output of one 1,000 MW central unit. You need conductors to bring all the highly distributed power to a central collection point.
3. Rare Earth minerals? I didn't have a clue for this one. Rare earth minerals are used in high power permanent magnets, but I didn't think AC generators used those. Then I just found this at apex magnets.com: "Within the past decade or so, some wind turbines have been upgraded to utilize direct drive permanent magnet generator (PMG) systems, which has eliminated the need for gearboxes. Permanent magnets systems are used because they can be more cost-efficient, reliable and low-maintenance. Instead of needing electricity to emit a magnetic field, large neodymium magnets are usually used to produce their own. This eliminates the need for some parts that previous generator required and decreases the wind speed needed to produce energy."

My new learning for the day! Thanks.

[palmer]

you have 333 x 3 MW machines spaced out all over Kingdom Come to equal the output of one 1,000 MW central unit

That's the crux of the problem. With solar and wind the energy sources are weak. With fossil, nuclear and hydro the energy is much more concentrated. That means the raw materials making up the parts that produce the power are more effectively used, more power produced per pound of materials.

Accordingly I don't see a role for wind in the long run. In fact I don't see a role for any power source other than solar and some sort of advancement in small scale nuclear, perhaps even solid state nuclear. Solid state power with no moving parts is the ideal, and the technology and materials advances already in labs have triple the efficiency of today's typical panels. Also there are panels with built-in storage to provide power when needed, plus panels to produce fuel from water and CO2. Wind turhines are essentially obsolete.

[ridesthemiles]

I sure hope his education did NOT cost you your retirement savings.

[ridesthemiles]

The damn solar panels on houses or the larger solar ‘farms’ are no better. IF the sun is at just the right angle, pilots coming into LAX are blinded by the solar panels. Not a joke & NOT UNCOMMON.

[ridesthemiles]

Isn’t one of the major story lines in “Atlas Shrugged” about the closure of copper mines??

[ridesthemiles]

Solar panels & Hailstorms are not friendly to each other, either. I wonder how a home owners insurance handles such?

[Billthedrill]

Isn’t one of the major story lines in “Atlas Shrugged” about the closure of copper mines?

D'Anconia Copper. We're rapidly reaching the point at which no one will read Atlas Shrugged anymore not because it's outlandish, but because it's history.

[Professional Engineer]

bkmk

[ProtectOurFreedom]

Get this! Our local school district is run by green kooks, probably like a lot of other school districts. They got our town to agree to a bond measure to pay for some good stuff (High School science lab upgrades, classroom remodels) and also to “go green” at the schools. So HUGE solar panels have gone up in front of all our our K-12 schools, thoroughly destroying the aesthetics of our once-nice school buildings.

Wait for it...it gets even better. The huge panels create very dark places underneath for low-life can lurk, commit crimes, rob and rape people. The solution? Put BRIGHT lights under the panels and have them on all night long. Now the houses near the schools have these really bright lights shining into their windows all night long. So the uber-liberals who voted “Green” now have their sleep interrupted. And some fraction of the solar panel output that went into the grid in the daytime now has to be fed back at night time to light up the solar panels. Today is overcast and rainy, so there is probably no power being generated, but the panels will consume power tonight to make our once-safe neighborhood safe again.

Liberal idiots. First they uglify our neighborhood with these industrial plants that do not belong here, then they light them up all night long and burn energy that they didn’t use before.

[steve8714]

Distilled unicorn piss?