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To: Mrs. Don-o

Even given the fact that Francis has done nothing to help his Church, has he done anything as bad as the first apostles, who with the exception of one, ran like rabbits and weren’t even at the crucifixion? I think everyone still thinks pretty highly of them, even with their failings. Let’s face it, humans are pretty unreliable in general.


49 posted on 04/15/2018 2:38:06 PM PDT by nobamanomore
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To: nobamanomore
I get your point, and in fact it's a point I myself have made several times on this forum over the past 5 years.

However, the comparison only goes so far.

(1)The Apostles fled on that first Thursday-evening and Good Friday, full of fear as men afraid of death and the failure of the Messianic mission. After they saw the risen Lord, touched Him, ate with Him, heard him teach during the 40 days before the Ascension, and especially after the Descent of the Holy Spirit, they were transformed men, free from fear and full of zeal.

We think highly of then, not because they abandoned the Lord, not because we can brush that abandonment away as "only human," but because they repented and were transformed.

It is reasonable to assume that believers of today, living the sacramental life and, for the clergy, having access to the grace of their office, would not act like quivering pre-Easter cowards. IF they are believers.

2)Even the handful of notoriously bad Renaissance popes, were corrupt themselves, but did not spend their papacies corrupting the whole Church by corrupting doctrine. Frankly, the historic bad popes were not into doctrine: it didn't interest them. They were into their mistresses, boys, girls, wealth, prestige, a palace in Avignon, the death of their enemies.

This pope, unlike the quivering pre-Easter Apostles and unlike even the bad Renaissance popes, is on a mission to knock the foundations out from under the whole edifice of Sacred Doctrine and Moral Law. Or, failing to technically do quite "change doctrine." he's on mission to adulterate Catholic pastoral practice and demolish what's left of Catholic culture, which amounts to the same thing.

Doctrine will stay the same on paper. But what happens in chanceries and rectories and the lives of the faithful when they no longer know "faithful to what?" ---will be hellbent: quite a different story.

Will the Church in the end prevail? Yes, per Christ's promises. But in the meantime, also per Christ's promise, the Great Apostasy. Much damage will be done, many souls be exposed to the ultimate horror.

This is War. And our putative earthly General is dallying in the Enemy's camp.

52 posted on 04/15/2018 4:39:07 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God." - 1 Peter 4:17)
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To: nobamanomore; Gay State Conservative
I get your point, and in fact it's a point I myself have made several times on this forum over the past 5 years.

However, the comparison only goes so far.

(1)The Apostles fled on that first Thursday-evening and Good Friday, full of fear as men afraid of death and the failure of the Messianic mission. After they saw the risen Lord, touched Him, ate with Him, heard him teach during the 40 days before the Ascension, and especially after the Descent of the Holy Spirit, they were transformed men, free from fear and full of zeal.

We think highly of then, not because they abandoned the Lord, not because we can brush that abandonment away as "only human," but because they repented and were transformed.

It is reasonable to assume that believers of today, living the sacramental life and, for the clergy, having access to the grace of their office, would not act like quivering pre-Easter cowards. IF they are believers.

2)Even the handful of notoriously bad Renaissance popes, were corrupt themselves, but did not spend their papacies corrupting the whole Church by corrupting doctrine. Frankly, the historic bad popes were not into doctrine: it didn't interest them. They were into their mistresses, boys, girls, wealth, prestige, a palace in Avignon, the death of their enemies.

This pope, unlike the quivering pre-Easter Apostles and unlike even the bad Renaissance popes, is on a mission to knock the foundations out from under the whole edifice of Sacred Doctrine and Moral Law. Or, failing to technically to "change doctrine" de jure, he's on mission to adulterate Catholic pastoral practice and demolish what's left of Catholic culture de facto, which amounts to the same thing.

Doctrine will stay the same on paper. But what happens in chanceries and rectories and the lives of the faithful when they no longer know "faithful to what?" ---will be hellbent: quite a different story.

Will the Church in the end prevail? Yes, per Christ's promises. But in the meantime, also per Christ's promise, the Great Apostasy. Much damage will be done, many souls be exposed to the ultimate horror.

This is War. And our putative earthly General is dallying long in the Enemy's camp.

53 posted on 04/15/2018 4:43:15 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God." - 1 Peter 4:17)
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