Abraham Lincoln, The Gettysburg Address, November 19, 1863

Many | November 19, 1863 | Abraham Lincoln

[PeaRidge]

Basis to secede? You do not know that. None of the official documents makes that assertion.

[Bull Snipe]

It is a simple question. What is your source for the claim that the “Star of the West” was carrying troops, and munitions. Your imagination does not count.

[Bull Snipe]

Those documents were produced by the legislatures of those states. They are not included in the specific legislation to secede, but they produced by the men that made those decisions as primary reasons for the legislation.

[PeaRidge]

https://www.nytimes.com/1861/01/14/archives/capt-mcgowans-report-steamship-star-of-the-west.html

The article as it originally appeared.

January 14, 1861, Page 1
The New York Times Archives
NEW-YORK, Saturday, Jan. 12, 1861.

M.O. ROBERTS, ESQ. — SIR: After leaving the wharf on the 5th inst., at 5 o'clock P.M., we preceeded down the Bay, where we hove to, and took on board four officers and two hundred soldiers, with their arms, ammunition, &c., and then proceeded to sea, crossing the bar at Sandy Hook at 9 P.M. Nothing unusual took place during the passage, which was a pleasant one or this season of the year.

We arrived at Charleston Bar at 1:30 A.M. on the 9th inst., but could find no guiding marks for the Bar, as the lights were all out. We proceeded with caution, running very slow and sounding, until about 4 A.M., being then in 4 1/2 fathoms water, when we discovered a light through the haze which at that time covered the horizon. Concluding that the lights were on Fort Sumter, after getting the bearings of it, we steered to the S.W. for the main ship-channel, where we hove to, to await daylight, our lights having all been put out since 12 o'clock, to avoid being seen.

As the day began to break, we discovered a steamer just in shore of us, who, as soon as she saw us, burned one blue light and two red lights as signals, and shortly after steamed over the bar and into the ship channel. The soldiers were now all put below, and no one allowed on deck except our own crew. As soon as there was light enough to see, we crossed the bar and proceeded on up the channel, (the outer-bar buoy having been taken away,) the steamer ahead of us sending off rockets, and burning lights until after broad daylight, continuing on her course up nearly two miles ahead of us. (See full report at website).

JOHN MCGOWAN, Captain.

A version of this archives appears in print on January 14, 1861, on Page 1 of the New York edition with the headline: CAPT. McGOWAN’S REPORT.; STEAMSHIP STAR OF THE WEST,.

[Bull Snipe]

Thanks, had never seen that before.

[PeaRidge]

Some were, some were not as in news reports or unrecorded speeches.

Was the issue of slavery the primary issue that caused the secessions of Virginia, North Carolina, or Tennessee?

[PeaRidge]

You are welcome. I will always be truthful in what I assert.

[Bull Snipe]

No slavery was not the driving issue for those states to secede

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "You don't have to do much massaging to notice that Southern exports produced 75-85% of all European trade with the US."

"Massaging" being the key word here, it's the only way to justify the often repeated claim of "75-85%" of US exports came from "the South".

We've been over these numbers many times and they don't change.
In round numbers, total 1860 exports (see page 605), including specie: $400 million.
Total cotton exports: $200 million = ~50%.
Other significant exports from Confederate states: none.
Exports from Southern Union states (i.e., tobacco): $30 million.
Exports from Northern & Western states: $104 million.
Specie exports: $66 million.

Total 1860 imports (including specie): $377 million.
Net 1860 trade surplus: $23 million.

Of course you can "massage" those numbers to make it look like "the South" did far more, and that's just what Fire Eater propagandists did in 1860.
But the fact remains as history demonstrated that Confederate states were nowhere near as vital to the US economy as many then, and even some today imagined.

[DiogenesLamp]

But apparently you need to be a 'rocket surgeon' to come to the conclusions that you have.

Because the idea, that extremely wealthy men with powerful connections to the Washington DC government might urge the government to protect their economic interests, is so mind boggling complicated that only extremely intelligent people can grasp it?

No, I think it's kid's stuff. If you are an honest kid who doesn't have a phobia about believing it.

[DiogenesLamp]

"Massaging" being the key word here, it's the only way to justify the often repeated claim of "75-85%" of US exports came from "the South".

No it isn't, and i'm not going to count specie exchange with Europe because that can't be sustained. Only trade can be sustained, and that constitutes 75-85% of export production coming from the South.

But does it really matter to the people making the profits from Southern trade if the number is 75-85% or just 50% like you want to argue? (Though I think i've seen you admit to as much as 63%.)

Do you think the powerful Interests of New York, who even today control the national airwaves and the money spending in Washington DC, care what the percentages are? They are still losing control of 200 million dollars per year, which would finance factories that would compete directly with them, and they would have had a relatively instant loss of market in the Midwest from the South supplying European goods up the Mississippi and through the long border with the US.

Whatever the percentages were, the loss of money to the New York power brokers (who still control us today) is large, and the loss of market share (which would make their losses even greater) is also large.

An independent South was a severe economic threat to the people who put Lincoln into power. Lincoln destroyed that economic threat to their power, and their hegemony has ever since continued running things here in the USA.

[DiogenesLamp]

The "Star of the West" was bringing troops to occupy Fort Sumter? I wonder if the Confederates knew of this? Considering they had spies and sympathizers in every Northern seaport, it is quite likely they did.

This puts a new color on what the "Star of the West" was doing. It wasn't just bringing "supplies", it was bringing reinforcements to support the holding of that Fort against the wishes of the people of Charleston.

Thanks for posting that. The more one digs into the story of how the Civil War started , the more you discover it is not what we had been led to believe.

[Bull Snipe]

Possibly. Until Dec 1860, John B. Floyd was the Secretary of the Navy. Very pro Southern, he would become a general in the Confederate Army in 1861. He resigned as Secretary Dec 1860. After his resignation, the Secretary of the Army was Joseph Holt. He was a Northerner and very pro Union. If the planning for the Star of the West mission began in Dec 1860, Floyd would have known about it. He could have passed that information on after leaving office. Other pro Southern men remained in the War Department, so they could have also passed information to the Confederates. If the Confederates had prior warning about the Star of the West, seems to me they would have made a stronger effort to resist the ships entry into Charleston. The original plan called for the Frigate Brooklyn to escort the ship. Buchanan nixed that idea as to provocative. If the Confederates knew about the true nature of the Star of the West cargo, then the firing on the ship by the Morris island battery was planned and intentional, not just a lark by the Citadel cadets.

[BroJoeK]

PeaRidge quoting: "...we hove to, and took on board four officers and two hundred soldiers, with their arms, ammunition, &c., and then proceeded to sea..."

The fact is that neither Presidents Buchanan nor Lincoln ever agreed to any terms which prevented them from resupplying Union troops in Union Fort Sumter.
Indeed, very early on Buchanan announced that Fort Sumter would not be surrendered and would be defended against any attacks.
The issue of using the civilian Star of the West versus a navy ship, i.e., Powhattan, was only which was more likely to succeed without a Confederate response.

DiogenesLamp: "The more one digs into the story of how the Civil War started , the more you discover it is not what we had been led to believe."

We certainly know it was not what DiogenesLamp wishes us to believe.
That's because any such claims -- that resupplying Union troops in a Union fort was suddenly an act of war -- are just ludicrous.
The real provocations & acts of war were the dozens of Federal properties -- forts, ships, arsenals, mints, etc. -- seized by Confederates, many even before their states declared secession, plus threats against Union officials and firings on Union ships.

The truth is that from Day One Confederates had been at active war against the United States while President Buchanan did nothing to stop them.

President Lincoln also did nothing until Confederate threats turned into military assault at Fort Sumter.

The key fact here is that Jefferson Davis had already ordered both Forts Sumter & Pickens seized by military force, regardless of what Lincoln did or didn't do.

[Bull Snipe]

“which would finance factories that would compete directly with them.
Pure speculation on your part. As the worlds larges cotton producer, not one yard of cotton cloth was manufactured in the South. Southerners were not interested in manufacturing.
That money would have been plowed back into cotton production. As long as Cotton was king, that’s what southerners would have produced. The South had 40 years of record profits from the cotton trade to diversify their economic base, yet they failed miserably at doing so. In 1861, there was only 1 significant manufacturing operation in the South, Tredegar at Richmond. The Southern view of manufacturing was pretty well summed up by Senator Wigfall of Texas when he said. “We have no commercial marine-no navy-we don’t want them. Your ships carry our produce and you can protect your own vessels. We want no manufactures; we desire no trading, no mechanical or manufacturing classes.
As long as we have our cotton, our rice, our sugar, our tobacco, we can command wealth to purchase all we want from these nations with which we are in amity.”

[PeaRidge]

This summary was assembled from several books.

On January 5th and yielding to pressure, President Buchanan ordered a privately owned ship to be outfitted with supplies and troops to be sent to Ft. Sumter.  The ship, The Star of the West, was engaged in off shore commodities trade, and regularly operated from the Northeast to the Southeast. 

Buchanan’s administration leased the side-wheel, shallow-draft ship for $1250 a day, loaded it with 200 armed troops, and ordered it to sail from NY to Charleston harbor.  This constituted a secret armed mission against the city.

 

The Star of the West arrived at Charleston Harbor.   She crossed the bar early on the morning of January 9, 1861, and steamed up Ship channel, which runs for miles parallel with Morris island, and within range of guns of large caliber.

The Star of the West ignored the efforts of a pilot boat placed at the entrance of the channel by Governor Pickens to warn her off. The guard boat General Clinch then saw her and preceded her up the channel firing rockets to alert the Confederate gunners.

Her course lay right under the 24-pounder battery commanded by Major Stevens and manned by cadets from the Citadel. This battery was supported by the Zouave Cadets, Captain Chichester; the German Riflemen, Captain Small, and the Vigilant Rifles, Captain Tupper.

 

When within range a shot was fired across her bow, and she not heeding it, the battery fired directly upon her. Fort Moultrie also fired a few shots, and the Star of the West rapidly changed her course and, turning round, steamed out of the range of the guns, having received but little material damage by the fire.

 

Major Anderson did not open his batteries.  He later wrote to the governor that, influenced by the hope that the firing on the Star of the West was not supported by the authority of the State, he had refrained from opening fire upon the batteries.  He did state in his correspondence that unless it was promptly disclaimed he would regard it as an act of war, and after waiting a reasonable time he would fire upon all vessels coming within range of his guns.

 

The governor promptly replied, justifying the action of the batteries in firing upon the vessel, and giving his reasons in full. He pointed out to Major Anderson that his removal to Fort Sumter and the circumstances attending it, and his attitude since were a menace to the State, and reflected a purpose of coercion.

 

He flatly stated that the bringing into the harbor of more troops and supplies of war was in open defiance of the State, and an assertion of a purpose to reduce her to abject submission to the government she had discarded.   The vessel had been fairly warned not to continue her course, and that his threat to fire upon the vessels in the harbor was in keeping with the evident purpose of the government of the United States to dispute the right of South Carolina to dissolve connection with the Union.

 

This right was not to be debated or questioned, urged the governor, and the coming of the Star of the West, sent by the order of the President, after being duly informed by commissioners sent to him by the convention of the people of the State to fully inform him of the act of the State in seceding from the Union, and of her claim of rights and privileges in the premises, could have no other meaning than that of open and hostile disregard for the asserted independence of South Carolina.

 

To defend that independence and to resent and resist any and every act of coercion are “too plainly a duty,” said Governor Pickens, “to allow it to be discussed.”

Thus, the citizens of the state of South Carolina realized that the U.S. government was conspiring against the people to reinforce the military presence by secret interventions.  This meant that negotiations might become useless if the government instituted coercion of the state as this act indicated.

The possession of Fort Sumter was the key to South Carolina’s safety.  Commanding the ship channel as it did, an unfriendly garrison could prevent the passage of any shipping, and bottle up the state’s only major port.

This would make a laughingstock of any claim of independence.

After neglecting the bastion for years, Washington was suddenly eager to improve the fort, despite the fact that there was no threat from any foreign nation.  

This was proof of the certainty that the Federal government did plan to hold Ft. Sumter, and place its military on South Carolina soil.

 

If every man has the absolute right to his justly-held property it then follows that he has the right to keep that property – to defend it by violence against violent invasion.(Rothbard, M.)

“The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse.” —James Madison

[rockrr]

If ever there was a traitor in the Civil war, John B. Floyd was it.

[rockrr]

This constituted a secret armed mission against the city.

Bullshit.

[Bull Snipe]

No argument from me on that point.

[PeaRidge]

Again, you demonstrate the shallow education you received.

You said....”not one yard of cotton cloth was manufactured in the South. Southerners were not interested in manufacturing.”

Nothing could be further from the truth. Graniteville Company built several textile Mills in Graniteville, SC in 1845-55.

Another textile mill in Augusta, Ga., recently owned by United Merchants and Mfg. Co. had been built in the 1850s and converted to cannon ball production during the war.

https://scpictureproject.org/aiken-county/graniteville-mill.html