Lion Air pilots batttled doomed jet's computerized safety. system, black box shows

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/lion-air-pilots-battled-doomed-jets-computerized-safety/story?id=594 ^ | 11/27/18 | David Kerley and Jeffrey Cook

[Gay State Conservative]

What fun that will be!

It's not difficult to understand why "personal injury" lawyers are crying "bring them on!"

[cymbeline]

“... and how to override it”

Seems like the 1st thing pilots would want to know about a flight control system is how to override it.

[cymbeline]

“... defeat all the safety interlocks on a JCB backhoe”

My riding lawnmower required that a button on the dash be held down before it would go in reverse. I overrode that. Also, the engine would stop when you got off the seat. I overrode that.

[colderwater]

Over at PPRUNE.ORG, reading the relevant thread indicates the angle of attack sensor (AOA) was acting up on previous flights. Those pilots managed not to crash. The AOA was replaced before the fateful flight, so perhaps the fault was elsewhere.

(1) equipment fault not fixed
(2) existing procedures would have (and apparently did in prior flights) cope with the fault.

Before we jump down Boeing's or anyone else’s throat, we should withhold judgment until the final investigation is complete. It is way to early for ambulance chasers to celebrate.

c.w.

[PapaBear3625]

Why did the computer think the plane was stalling? Was there a piece of tape over one of the pitot tubes or something?

Or maybe the tube was clogged with dirt.

[BRL]

My riding lawnmower required that a button on the dash be held down before it would go in reverse. I overrode that. Also, the engine would stop when you got off the seat. I overrode that.

This sounds like a set up to a bad joke

[GingisK]

Think about the times ahead when the general public must cope with their cars pulling these stunts.

[Pearls Before Swine]

I think that the main question is why didn’t the pilots know about that automatic system and how to override it?

I read that over-ride required the pushing of two buttons, and that that is what the pilots who had previously flown that plane did. Those pilots reported the problem, and the air-speed sensors were replaced, apparently unsuccessfully because the problem persisted.

[GingisK]

Arduino developers are the norm these days. Few know know anything works inside because they can just cut and paste source code or download poorly written libraries.

[GingisK]

Sounds like the system could not detect a bad sensor. That can usually be accomplished. Triple redundancy of mission critical devices is a must.

[norwaypinesavage]

"Have all the 737 MAX Jets been grounded yet?"

I just rode one yesterday on a flight from Denver to Austin. I thought about the Lion Air crash a few minutes after takeoff, while the engine speed was varying considerably during a seemingly continuous climb to altitude.

[PAR35]

I’m sure that’s the first thing taught when checking out on these planes.

And, you'd be wrong. The secret 'safety feature' wasn't even in the manuals.

I wondered how long it would take the Boeing cheerleaders to show up.

USA Today link only:
Pilots says Boeing didn't disclose new control feature on 737 Max
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2018/11/14/pilots-says-boeing-didnt-disclose-new-control-feature-737-max/2001713002/

U.S. Pilots Maintain Boeing Never Warned of System Linked to 737
https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/11/13/507297.htm

Boeing issues safety bulletin on 737 Max aircraft following Lion Air
https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/7/18073532/boeing-737-max-faa-lion-air-jakarta-indonesia

[norwaypinesavage]

"The AOA was replaced before the fateful flight, so perhaps the fault was elsewhere."

Au contraire. When there are bad sensors around, the probability of the replacement also being bad is quite high.

[minnesota_bound]

It was some kid playing a video game in the back that overrode the jets computer.

[SJSAMPLE]

IIRC, it was installed after the manuals were written and was distributed through notices and bulletins.

[shotgun]

The bigger question is why weren’t they completely familiar with all if the controls. Apparently there is a switch located near the pilots right hand that if they flipped it off, then this problem can be resolved safely.

Its as if they took ownership of these planes and their pilots didn’t ask, “hey, whats this switch for?”

I’m not trying to minimize a bad sensor problem but this seems to defy logic

[polymuser]

Hope it never overrides you ;)

[River_Wrangler]

This is why I wont fly on Airbus products. I am sorry to see Boing going to the same engineering methods.

[WhoisAlanGreenspan?]

Thanks for the links.

"Boeing didn't tell airline pilots about features of a new flight-control system in its 737 Max that reportedly is a focus of the investigation into last month's deadly crash in Indonesia, according to pilots who fly the jet in the U.S."

It isn't clear to me if it was the same flight crew, but it was the same aircraft. And either way the crew that crashed must have been profoundly aware of what happened and how to override. If not, that falls on Lion Air.

But otherwise, Boeing looks mostly to blame.

[Sequoyah101]

We lived for a long long time before the days of all these safety interlocks. Many don’t make things safer at all but are a response to the manufacturer being sued by some fool who should not have been operating a machine in the first place. Starting a machine in gear is just about as dumb as shooting yourself while cleaning a loaded gun.

You can’t make things fool proof. Fools are very clever and can out smart any system designed to prevent their foolishness.