Maybe we roll back the clock a few centuries then...oh wait.
Posted on 12/05/2018 7:00:43 PM PST by Pining_4_TX
The recent clash between Russian and Ukrainian naval vessels in the Kerch Strait has generated a flurry of alarm. NATO was compelled to call an emergency meeting with Ukraine and the UN Security Council convened an urgent session to discuss the crisis. Exercising their usual tendency to oversimplify murky geopolitical rivalries, Western officials and journalists embraced the knee-jerk narrative that the incident is yet another case of Vladimir Putin’s blatant aggression and “outlaw behavior” against its peace-loving, democratic neighbor. Right on cue, CNN, MSNBC, and other media outlets dispatched stridently anti-Russian editorials masquerading as news stories.
In reality, the Kerch Strait incident involves a complex mixture of factors. They include the tense Russian-Ukrainian bilateral relationship, Kiev’s broader foreign policy objectives, and Ukraine’s volatile domestic politics.
(Excerpt) Read more at theamericanconservative.com ...
[There are dozens here on FR that will side with Ukraine, no matter what. No matter how illiberal they are in all their domestic and international affairs.]
Vienna was the capital of Germany for 1000 years.
Ukraine has abundant resources; coal, iron ore, and an agricultural segment that is very rich. It has strong industry with the huge Arcelor Steel mill, the Antonov aircraft company and others. Over 200 American companies do business there. I believe Russia wants them back and will try to take them over in time.
They never should have let John McCain into the country. Where he went chaos followed.
Maybe we roll back the clock a few centuries then...oh wait.
The straight is Russia.
Passage is only by Russian permission.
Ukranian vessels must obtain Russian permission to pass
It’s just that simple. All the pearl clutching is for show, theater
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
That does not mean that it is up to the US to ensure that right, and it cannot even if we wanted to. The world is not ours to remake.
Germany and Austria weren’t two separately-defined nations until Germany was formed in 1871; prior to that, the confederation of German states was dominated by two large ones: Austria and Prussia. In 1866 Prussia beat Austria in a war, assuming leadership of the rest of the states and forcing Austria to dominate elsewhere (hence Austria-Hungary).
A problem for Ukraine is that they don’t have the clearly-defined borders or history that other countries had; Russia’s logic is the same it used when it invaded Georgia (that they had more claim to it, and represented the people better) - and the West did nothing then as well. While I hope an independent Ukraine flourishes, part of their predicament is caused by the fact that when the USSR broke up, rather than tighten their belts ASAP they raised cash by selling weaponry/military hardware. Probably regret that now...
“Siding with Ukraine against a Russian attempt to annex it is pretty much a no-brainer.”
Well, except we have no interests there.
The same interest we had in Crimea back in 1783 when Russia took it from the Turks, none.
Both Ukraine and Crimea were part of Russia, not the Soviet Union, for longer than the American Southwest has been part of the US. But hey, Victoria Nuland staged a coup there, and as all good Ukraine supporters know, anything the Obama regime did is right and the US should double down on it.
The fact is, only reason deep state scum give a damn about Ukraine is because the Neocon crowd want to turn it into another Libya to cause problems for Russia, Hungary, and Poland.
They're pissed at Russia over being run out of Russia before their puppets could finish raping Russia after the Soviet Union fell, and they're pissed at the other two for having the gall to reject the Neocon anti-Christ queer agenda.
Please tell me your history is better than your map indicates.
Most of the Blue Region, was taken by the USSR from... RUSSIA? There are Russian census going back to the area centuries before catherine the great.
The Purple region (Crimea) was moved from the Russian Province of the USSR to the Ukrainian in 1954, simply moving an internal border of the ussr.
Crimea was Russian since 1783, taken from the Turks by Catherine the Great. How much of an evil crime it was for Russia to take it from the turks. (as much of Blue and orange region was before also)
The yellow Region, maybe you can also lecture us on how evil it was for poland and lithuania to steal this from the Ukrainians. If you can figure out when Ukraine was ever really independent (good luck with that).
The westmost part (green) was never part of Russia, but it wasn’t really independent Ukraine going back histories either.... (Austria hungary, poland/lithuania, etc)
Ukraine is flat and not very defensible, so many empire wash over it
Going back a little further Ukraine doesn't even exist (although Crimea does).
The damned Russians have to withdraw from Ukrainian territory before I’ll consider any act by the Ukrainians to be ‘wrong’.
And I do not GAF about any BS arguments that try to legitimize the Russians cowardly invasion of Ukraine and I further oppose this whole propaganda push of the last few weeks that seeks to justify the Russian’s theft of Ukrainian territory.
I am convinced that this latest propaganda push is an effort to set the stage for the next Russian attack against Ukraine.
I expect that sometime in late February or early March the Russians will invade the rest of Ukraine and annex past the Dneiper River. I also expect that the bastards will conduct airstrikes on Kiev and other cities in Ukraine to try to force the Ukrainians to surrender half of their territory to the bastard Russian thieves.
And it IS in the interests of the USA to stop the Russian effort to reoccupy the former Soviet slave states.
You’re not alone in seeing this obvious Russian trolling here on FR.
Megan
“I believe Russia wants them back and will try to take them over in time.”
Russia this past month moved six divisions of the Red Army into Crimea and they’ve also moved three armored divisions into the Bryansk region. They’re clearly posturing to attack and invade not just part of Ukraine but all of it.
I suspect they’ll do so in late February or early March as that is historically one of the best times to start an offensive in that part of the world.
“...The world is not ours to remake.” [Pining_4_TX, post 28]
A precious moral sentiment. Americans are far too inclined to believe it. If we do not remake things, others will. Are we so sure we will like the results of that?
The United States was a trading nation before it became a formally sovereign, independent nation. Stray remarks by the Founders notwithstanding, trading nations cannot be isolationist.
The time to intervene is before things get really bad. The dire situations that developed in World War One, and then World War Two, should give us a hint.
But too many Americans are too enamored with their own moral state to notice. Conservatives pride ourselves on being realistic; we should be leading the way on incidents like this, not congratulating ourselves on our moral prissiness while opting out.
Citing past incidents where intervention did not end well is excuse-mongering of the most puerile variety.
[Well, except we have no interests there.]
[You’re not alone in seeing this obvious Russian trolling here on FR.
Megan]
“When a country that is already the largest on Earth, by far (i.e. almost 2x), decides to expand its territory, we are by default interested in the outcome, as a matter of national security.”
That assertion is entirely debatable by serious people.
And being interested in the outcome is not the same thing as having a core, essential, real interest.
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