Posted on 12/08/2018 3:15:49 PM PST by RoosterRedux
I thought this discussion was quite interesting--messy theologically--but interesting.
I was surprised at Peterson's knowledge of the Old Testament (particularly the prophets) and I thought Shapiro's comments were honest and interesting.
Here's sample of the comments by Shapiro (keep in mind that this is free flowing speech and not edited text):
Ben Shapiro:What you’re seeing is this tremendous confluence between Orthodox Jews and Observant Christians on matters of values because when Christianity in the late 20th century and mid-20th century in America--more broadly because American Christianity is very different than European Christianity--once there was the idea that Jews were not the enemy to be converted but maybe you still want to convert me but we’re not gonna come at you with a knife, we’re gonna come at you with a book, we share a common framework as to how the world is suppose to work--you just may not agree with the second half of the book--and I think that’s created a pretty good working relationship.
This is why I am struggling to come with the significant differences…I need a Christian to tell me what is the single difference.
Actually I’d say old European Christiandom had a much more aggressive relationship with Jews. Modern American Christians, especially evangelicals tend to love Jews, at least as an academic concept, far more than the typical secular Jew loves them. Thats one of the great American political ironies, the mainstream secular Jewish population tends to strongly align itself against one of its biggest fans, the Christian Right while aligning itself with elements of the left which literally hold as much hostility to it as Nazis. Religious and Orthodox Jews can be another story but they’re the current minority.
Stay in touch and keep us advised on Peterson.
Thanks for posting. Interesting discussion. BUMP.
ping.
I was sort of the Sons of Thunder always thinking if God called on me I'd give Lucifer and the world blah, blah, blah. And the older I get, the more humbled, the more I realize I'm fallen man.
Those ideas of a Son of Thunder are long gone.
What is man that You are mindful of him, And the son of man that You visit him?
For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor.
You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,
All sheep and oxen— Even the beasts of the field,
The birds of the air, And the fish of the sea That pass through the paths of the seas.
Agree. Peterson might be genius in some things but he sure doesn’t sound like a Christian. I’ve tried listening to his rhetoric and think Jesus is standing at the door of his lukewarm heart asking if He can come in and break bread together.
Christians believe themselves the fulfillment....
And what could be more vexing than the eternal Jew flying in the face of that belief.
I’d wager many, many more intelligent Christians have compared Christianity to Torah-true Orthodox Judaism and have converted, than Orthodox Jews have converted to Christianity.
That's a poor comparison because you're comparing people who are sincere in their religious beliefs to those who may not be. You're comparing the conversion numbers for two groups:
1. Christians who are intelligent but may be not be strong Christians; and
2. Orthodox Jews who are paragons of the practice of Judaism.
That would be like comparing: (A) the number of people from traditional Catholic groups like the Society of St. Pius X and the Fraternity of St. Peter who convert to Judaism vs. (B) the number of Jewish people (of any degree of practice) who convert to traditional Catholicism. I'll bet (B) is a much higher number here even if it's not a large number, because I can almost guarantee you that (A) is damn near zero.
I don't find that vexing at all. As I said earlier, this "eternal Jew" is basically an anachronism. There hasn't been a prophet in more than 2,000 years, and with each passing day the proper role of Judaism in salvation history becomes more clear.
Even Orthodox Judaism as we know it is a relatively modern manifestation of Judaism, dating back to the late 18th century in Eastern Europe.
No, Christians believe Christ is the fulfillment of the law and of God's plan for man. "For the Messiah is the culmination of the Law as far as righteousness is concerned for everyone who believes." - Romans 10:4
And what could be more vexing than the eternal Jew flying in the face of that belief.
No, Christians being killed and tortured for their faith is vexing. Christians are the most persecuted people on earth today. We have been persecuted since the church began in 33-AD. The more persecuted, the more we grow.
The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name (Jesus)....Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead ...God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” When they (Sanhedrin) heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, ... addressed the Sanhedrin: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. ... I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” - Acts 5:27-39
Christians make up 33% of the world's population and Jews 0.20% . Draw your own conclusions.
My understanding is that his “higher education” was actually instrumental in breaking him from socialism.
He quit going to church when he was between 12 and 14 and started hanging out with a group of socialists. He continued his association through active participation in socialist groups at college where he began to really study socialism in the 20th Century.
He discovered the horrors of Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and others and started to realize what he was saying about socialism did not correspond with how he felt about it inside. This caused him to turn away from it and now he is a staunch anti-socialist.
The above is a very incomplete summary but I believe it accurately portrays his youth/early 20’s.
Exactly.
Actually, I just recalled something I heard him say. He did say, and I’m paraphrasing here, that the teaching he received on Christianity was not deep enough to satisfy him. I think what he’s doing now is finding the deeper meaning of Christianity. It made sense to me that he would have to leave no stone unturned before he accepted something so monumental. That’s why I believe he will reach the conclusion he must - and his exhaustive search and questioning will make him a very good witness.
Bringing New Testament is no proof for Jews, who ascribe zero divinity to your texts.
Are 1 billion Hindus or 1.5 billion Buddhists wrong?
(Deut 4:27) And the Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and you will remain few in number among the nations to where the Lord will lead you.
Seems like good fulfillment prophecy to me? Your proof proves the Torah is correct, doesn’t it?
Until the complete redemption...when you’ll accept the 7 Noahide laws. Why beat around the bush?
There are three words that set Christianity apart from all others religions.
He Is Risen
The New Testament is full of words that set it apart.
“As a child I received instruction in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene. No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.” Albert Einstein, Saturday Evening Post, Oct 26, 1929
is not three.
Stop being a Sunday School Christian and get down in the mud with the rest of us.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.