Posted on 04/15/2019 5:52:50 AM PDT by Kaslin
Last week, the president of Brazil, Jair Bolsonaro, created a firestorm of controversy when he said to a group of evangelical leaders that the Holocaust could be forgiven but not forgotten. But in response to an uproar from the Jewish community in Israel, he claimed “that his remarks had been misinterpreted.”
As he explained, “Forgiveness is something personal, my speech was never meant to be used in a historical context, especially one where millions of innocent people were murdered in a cruel genocide.”
Is there a difference, then, between forgiving and forgetting? And is there a difference of opinion between Judaism and Christianity when it comes to these important (and difficult) subjects?
This past Thursday, in a meeting with evangelical pastors, Bolsonaro said (with reference to the Holocaust), “We can forgive, but we cannot forget. Those who forget their past are sentenced not to have a future.”
So, it would seem that he felt it important to emphasize the importance of keeping the horrific memory of the Holocaust alive while at the same time allowing for the possibility of forgiveness.
In response, Israeli President Reuven Rivlin tweeted (but without specifically referencing Bolsonaro), “We will never extend our hand to those who deny the truth or attempt to erase it. Not individuals or organizations, not heads of parties and not heads of states. We will never forgive and never forget. No one will order the Jewish people's forgiveness and no interest will buy it.”
And Yad Vashem, from the Holocaust memorial museum in Israel, said in a statement that, “We disagree with the Brazilian president's statement that the Holocaust can be forgiven. It is not in anyone's position to determine who and if Holocaust crimes can be forgiven.”
What should we make of these statements?
Do they reflect Jewish thought regarding the possibility of repentance? And do they mirror Christian thought?
I can certainly understand the swift response from Israel, as if the gentile, Christian president of Brazil can decide to pronounce forgiveness for the Nazis and their partners in crime.
To say this is to trivialize, to speak for the victims and their families, to minimize the enormity of the guilt.
“Yes, it was very bad, but we can forgive and move on. Let’s just be sure it doesn’t happen again.”
But is that was Bolsonaro was saying? And, if there is true repentance, is there still no possibility of forgiveness?
First, I understand that the Brazilian president’s point was this: “We do not hold this against Germany for all time. We are willing to forgive when we see contrition and repentance. But we must never forget this horrific evil, lest something like it happen again in our day.”
Second, I don’t believe Bolsonaro was claiming to speak for God in terms of the fate of Hitler and his henchmen. He was not saying, “We pronounce those evil men forgiven.” Certainly not.
Third, Israel has forgiven Germany as a nation for its crimes, establishing excellent relations with their former tormentors.
As noted on the Israel Project website (dated January 25, 2012), “The German-Israeli relationship has been shaped by the memory of the Holocaust and the strong desire on the part of the German people to help ensure that the suffering endured by the Jewish people between 1933 and 1945 will never recur.
“Germany and Israel established diplomatic relations in 1965. Since then, these ties have been characterized by overall friendship between the two nations but also by frequent crises that bring to light the delicate nature of the relations and their emotional fragility.”
Isn’t this what Bolsonaro was saying?
Fourth, the Bible records that God accepted the repentance of two of the most wicked leaders in the history of Israel and Judah, Ahab and Manasseh, delaying the judgment they were due (see 1 Kings 21:27-29; 2 Chronicles 33:10-17). They were responsible for many deaths, yet God postponed their punishment.
In God’s own words, as recorded by the prophet Ezekiel, “Is it my desire that a wicked person shall die?—says the Lord GOD. It is rather that he shall turn back from his ways and live” (Ezekiel 18:23).
This would mean that, if a Nazi murderer who had escaped justice for many years came forward, confessed his crimes, and demonstrated true repentance, he should be forgiven. (If God, who is infinitely holy and perfectly righteous can forgive, shouldn’t we follow His example?) He would still need to pay for his crimes, including lifelong imprisonment or even death, but he would die a forgiven man.
And this, of course, leads to the message of the gospel, namely, that through Jesus, God can forgive and redeem the worst of sinners. This would include Saul of Tarsus (better known as Paul the apostle), who once killed Jews who believed in Jesus, only to receive grace and mercy from God (see 1 Timothy 1:12-16).
That’s how Corrie Ten-Boom could forgive the prison guard the cruel prison guard who tormented her and her sister when they were imprisoned during the Holocaust for protecting Jews. (If you’ve never read the account, take a moment and read it now. It’s worth it! Corrie’s sister died while imprisoned.)
o be sure, the Holocaust itself cannot be forgiven, nor do any of us have the power to pronounce forgiveness on a past generation. In that sense, I concur with the statements from Israel. But we can recognize true repentance when we see it, we can forgive as the Lord forgave us (for followers of Jesus, this is especially relevant), and we can leave vengeance and final judgment to God.
Certainly, I understand why the reaction from Israel was so swift and strong, especially in light of the never-ending attempts to deny the Holocaust (or, at the least, to minimize it).
But there is truth to Bolsonaro’s words, and as a friend of Israel, he should not be misunderstood.
I thought so too.
Mr. GRAHAM: We can argue all we like, but if capital punishment is being inflicted on some man, we are inclined to say: ‘It serves him right.’ That is not the spirit, I believe, in which legislation is enacted. If in this present age we were to go back to the old time of ‘an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth,’ there would be very few hon. gentlemen in this House who would not, metaphorically speaking, be blind and toothless.
> Who is there left to forgive?
George Soros
“Can The Holocaust Be Forgiven?”
No, because you can’t forgive a “thing”. You can’t forgive “cancer”. You can’t forgive a “tree”.
You can only forgive what has the “capacity” to accept forgiveness.
While they can accept, reject, or ignore the forgiveness the object of forgiveness has to be able to accept.
Even a person in a coma may be able to accept.
The Holocaust and slavery are “ideas”. How can you forgive an “idea”, even if you wanted to?
Semantics? Well, yeah. Words mean things. Forgive and forget are two VERY different things.
Are “peanut butter” and “jelly” the same things? They often go together, but are absolutely two very different “things” and you can’t “forgive” either one.
“The New Testament scripture says to not follow the old law, but forgive.”
Only if the sinner repents and asks for forgiveness. That’s in Luke. Go look it up for yourself.
L
And NO, I didn’t compare the Holocaust and slavery to “peanut butter and jelly”.
I was comparing “forgive an forget”.
“Only if the sinner repents and asks for forgiveness. That’s in Luke. Go look it up for yourself.”
Jesus and Stephen both said the same thing as they were being killed.. “Father, Forgive them as they know not what they do.”
If you understand why they said this and the impact that “Not Forgiving” has upon your soul, you will understand the teachings.
Pretty much everyone who was a decision maker then, is dead. The ones left alive were mostly teenage draftees then.
There comes a point to move on, just as there came a point to move on about slavery.
what I was gonna say.
\Anybody who participated in the Holocaust is well on his way to facing Judgement at the Throne of the King of Kings.
Might as well forgive and let God handle the vengeance part.
Now you’re the one twisting the plain words of Jesus himself. “And IF HE REPENTS you must forgive him,”
“If” is a conditional word. You can look that up, too.
L
Bolsonaro is a good man. His remarks are not hard to understand, the holocaust must not be forgotten though we may no longer hold a grudge against the modern German nation.
But he has the problem Trump has; his opponents will catalogue anything and everything he says in an effort to discredit him and remove him from power. He is at the top of their enemies list, right up there with Trump and Netanyahu.
Luke 23:34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
While you are quoting:
Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.
You are taking it out of context as it really says:
Luke 17:2-4 New International Version (NIV) 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves.
“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
It does not say that they must repent in order for you to forgive them. You really do not understand forgiveness.
When someone holds onto anger, they harm their own soul. I do a demonstration in front of groups where I will hold onto a memory in a person's soul where they were angry. These memories are often many feet from their physical bodies. If your mother was angry at your father when you were in her womb, you still carry that anger as a wound in your soul even though it was not yours. (I have found this attribute in most of the lesbians I have worked with)
I take hold of the memory with attached anger and pull it, causing the person to come forward. I then ask them if they want to forgive the person, often it is themselves and when they do it is as though a rubber band snapped as they release the anger and fall backward. (This works with their eyes shut and I am 15 feet away from them.)
Forgiveness is for you to remove the obstacle blocking the flow of Love in your soul. That is what Jesus was teaching us.
There was no “firestorm”, just the phony outrage of the permanently outraged.
Forgiveness is up to the victims to grant or withhold.
Lurker, your heart is hard. That is not a judgement, but a statement of observation.
Many people do not understand that “Rebuke is Not Judgement.” To rebuke is merely to point out the behavior and the consequences to help a person. It is NOT judgement.
Sorry to say, in society today, people use the work rebuke as being synonymous with judgement or criticism.
One reason rebuke is often underappreciated in our own lives, and in many of our local churches is because we have such small definitions for rebuke. If we are truly going to speak the hard truth in love — or appreciate when others say the hard thing to us — we need a bigger, fuller picture of what this kind of love looks like in relationships and in our souls.
As the apostle Paul closes his second letter to his son in the faith, Timothy, he says, “Reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching” (2 Timothy 4:2).
When you rebuke, rebuke the behavior and not the person, just as you would correct your child by pointing out that the behavior is not acceptable for a good person, not that they are a “bad child.”
Forgiveness is between a person and God...
You can not hold me down with your anger no matter how strong. Your anger at me only harms you.
Forgiveness is between a person and God...
You can not hold me down with your anger no matter how strong. Your anger at me only harms you.
“It does not say that they must repent in order for you to forgive them.“
Your reading comprehension skills stink:
“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.”
It says “if they repent” right there. Do you not see it? It’s plain as fricking day.
L
Gosh no, not at all.
I am simply saying Iran is a more direct threat to Israel, and Israel knows is...that was in answer to another poster who said Israel would like to get us involved in a war with Iran in much the way Churchill wanted the US to get involved in the war they were fighting against Germany.
I agree it is a silly premise. Can we forgive modern day Germans for what their grandparents did in WWII? Of course we can, but the whole premise is framed pretty flimsily.
That said, a fundamental Christian premise is forgiveness, how that Christian concept is applied over time is the question.
I have Armenian blood. Can I forgive the Turks for the Armenian Genocide? Sure. But I didn’t live through it myself, so...what good does it do forgiving anyone for something I don’t hold against them.
I think one of the best examples of forgiveness is that of Louis Zamperini who was captured and severly tortured by the Japanese in WWII. After the war, his life was a living hell, he nearly choked his pregnant wife to death in a nightly bout of PTSD, he became an alcoholic, and his life spun out of control. He found Christ, and was able to travel back to Japan and meet personally with some of the very Japanese guards who tortured him (they were being held in prison by the allies for possible war crimes)
He forgave them in his heart and they were utterly astonished by it. How he could do it, I can’t imagine, but I do understand the power of forgiveness myself, having been in a very specific situation that I carried for many years.
But I think forgiveness can only come from within a person. You cannot force it on people externally, it has to come from the heart.
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