Posted on 05/17/2022 7:53:39 AM PDT by Kaslin
Intelligent Design theory is a valiant effort to marry science with faith. However, as for any theory, to be acceptable as potentially valid science it must be falsifiable. It is incumbent on proponents to conceive of a theoretical proposition, a prediction from theory which could be tested empirically and potentially disproven. Just pointing to fascinating phenomena, no matter how many, does not qualify as empirical data, and without data there is no science.
“Why assume that time has a beginning or an end?”
We don’t assume. We know the universe must have a beginning because we scientifically demonstrated the alternative hypotheses do not conform to the observed universe that we live in.
“Why assume that God, or a conscious universe, needed to create itself or have a beginning in time.”
God and the universe are separate questions. God is by definition supernatural and outside the universe. So science can’t tell us much of anything about Him. But the universe is natural, bound by physical laws, and observable to us at least to an extent, so science can inform us about the universe quite a bit.
“These are anthropomorphic concepts based on our own understanding of time.”
No, math and physics are not anthropomorphic concepts.
“It’s just a parable to help you understand the age of the universe in light of the scientifically verified Twin Paradox.”
Well, if it’s just a parable then it really explains nothing, since you are using a mechanism in the parable (God traveling faster than the speed of light) to account for physical discrepancies. But if you handwave away questions about that using a “parable” excuse, you have also handwaved away any potential explanation that could have been provided.
Dude, why so nitpicky? Why not instead work on the math of how fast a being would have had to travel to generate the universe in 7 days from one side of the twin paradox to appear 14 billion years old? Instead, you’re getting all petulant.
Shove off.
“A god that is created is not a “big G God”,”
So you’re saying God always existed. By that logic why can’t one say the universe always existed.
You’re a lot like an atheist. 110% sure of your unverified beliefs, with no room for doubt. God would not be happy with the poor use you’re making of the most precious gift he gave you - your brain.
“That rules out a creator’s omnipotence then.”
No it doesn’t. You need to reclassify the argument into two different categories, say a “strong omnipotence” and a “weak omnipotence” argument (though that sounds like an oxymoron, bear with me).
The “strong omnipotence” argument would be that God has omnipotence, the ability to accomplish anything, AND that anything God wants, is automatically accomplished.
The “weak omnipotence” argument would be that God has omnipotence, the ability to accomplish anything, BUT that God does not choose to automatically accomplish everything that He wants.
In this case, an imperfect world rules out only the strong omnipotence argument and not the weak omnipotence argument.
FWIW, death by disease or from old age was not part of God’s plan for Adam.
It follows that, before the Fall, nothing was certain except taxes. 😉
“Nature does not care about our rigged rulebook.”
No, but we’ve gotten pretty damn good at discovering nature’s rulebook (laws of nature) and using them to our benefit.
“It is probably obvious that I do not subscribe to the theory of theistic evolution.”
You’re free to subscribe to whatever theory you want, even the Tooth Fairy theory, but unless it can stand up to critical scrutinity and reality, it isn’t worth much.
After I posted: - ‘Then wondered was Adam created fully grown, or as a Zygote?’
= = =
I thought about the 2nd Adam.
He WAS created as a Zygote, Holy Spirit and Mary and all that.
(Well, He always existed but this is how He came to live on earth.)
In my life, I have found there are two different types of people in the world, those who want to know, and those who want to believe. The only “fools etc” are those who use their heads as a hat rack.
“math and physics are not anthropomorphic concepts”
There are a lot of assumptions buried in those few words.
First among them is the definition of “math” and “physics” since of course the details (including the most basic assumptions and definitions) have changed over the thousands of years since homo sapiens has studied them.
But—let us give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you meant to say that today’s version of math and physics are not anthropomorphic concepts.
Your view of mathematics is actually a philosophical position called mathematical Platonism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics#Platonism
It is highly controversial (and I am being kind here....).
Terence McKenna had some wonderful thoughts on this topic.
He said that Homo Sapiens made great toys for children.
;-)
Ahah...so any passage of Holy Scripture that doesn’t clearly survive strict scientific scrutiny is either stamped DEBUNKED in bright red ink, or is interpreted in some non-obvious way so as to allow the good and honest among us to consider it as true?
The new Adam, yes, of course, all true.
Son of the New Eve! 🤗
“It is incumbent on proponents to conceive of a theoretical proposition, a prediction from theory which could be tested empirically and potentially disproven.”
It’s just as incumbent on proponents of evolution to come up with the same type of prediction, but as far as I can see, they have not.
“By that logic why can’t one say the universe always existed.”
Because Einstein and some colleagues of his disproved that hypothesis about a century ago, that’s why.
“You’re a lot like an atheist. 110% sure of your unverified beliefs, with no room for doubt.”
No, I’m not, you are just assuming I am because that allows you to make a nice straw man argument I think.
As soon as a materialist can show any system by which hundreds of complex amino acids can appear by chance and also appear in a cell membrane I might start to take abiogenesis seriously. Mathematical odds of even one small chain appearing by chance is 10 to the 164th power. There are “only” 10 to the 80th power atoms in the observable universe.
An agnostic is an atheist who lacks conviction.
“Your view of mathematics is actually a philosophical position called mathematical Platonism.”
Well, says you at least.
I suppose you could posit that mathematics is purely an invention of man and that it’s just a coincidence that we can use it to describe so many complex processes of the universe in very simple terms, but that would be an extraordinary coincidence, so you would have to provide some extraordinary evidence to explain it. Until then, I’ll take the default position that mathematics is something we have discovered, not something that we have created.
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