Ukraine claims Bakhmut battle is Wagner’s ‘last stand’

The New York Times ^ | March 7, 2023 | Andrew E. Kramer and Anatoly Kurmanaev

[JonPreston]

I wish I could get back the the minute I took to read your post.

:)P)

[Mount Athos]

“If the Ukrainians aren’t seeing that it’s in their interest to cede territory, the only explanation is that they’re getting incredible kill ratios. The fact that the Russians are willing to take such losses without any gains means that the Russians are pretty much out of options... Putin is OK with losing this war.”

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This is some of the most broken logic I’ve ever seen posted to this site.

I recommend taking a second look at how to decide what is true or not, because this may lead to other misconceptions of reality in your life

[ansel12]

To answer your freepmail.

I did see the Atomic Annie in Arizona, I was on 155s but loved the 105s because they were just so much fun, and didn’t like the too large and impersonal to use, 8 inchers.

I had a nuclear weapons clearance when I was in artillery, which would have been for tactical nukes.

[MadMax, the Grinning Reaper]

Are you available today? DC needs a real cleanup.

[gleeaikin]

Reading the comments by Prigozhin I think I notice something a bit different from most Russian/pro Russian comentators. First he is not swallowing optimistic reports from headquarters. Secondly, he appears to have some subtle respect for Ukraine fighter and Zelenskyy. It is almost as if he sees them as competitors rather than as enemy.

I am wondering about several possibilities behind what he is saying.

1) If Putin is seriously ill he may be setting himself to take over control in Russia if he can. He is certainly making it sound as if the military support he is getting is quite incompetent.

2) He may be getting ready to withdraw so his troops and power base is not totally destroyed in this never ending battle.

3) He may be giving Ukraine fighters respect so that if he ends up negotiating a settlement with Ukraiane their negativity will not be as severe as if Putin were trying to negotiate.

4) He may see this war as a serious waste of his Wagners and their capabilities. After all he has been fairly successful as a mercenary force, and there are other places in the world for his kind of support.

Any other ideas of where Prigozhin’s head is at?

[Cronos]

I think your points #1 and #3 ring true

[Widget Jr]

My guesses:

1. Prigozhin is a part of the Russian system, not outside or above it. If Putin dies there are 30 members of the Security Council, the top of the Federal Assembly and State Duma. As far as the Russian political establishment is concerned, he is not high off the bottom rung of the ladder.

2. He is acting as if he has attached his political clout or personal value to Bakhmut. His problem is Sergei Shoigu and the Russian army do not have to supply it for him. Russia has cut off his access to prison and given Wagner the same priority for supplies and munitions as everyone else. Prigozhin maybe making the biggest mistake of his life here. The Ukrainian army is trying to make sure of it.

3. Wagner was created in 2014 as a Russian proxy army to take over Crimea, then Donestk, and Luhansk. This was shortly after the Maidan revolution, the removal of Poroshenko, and Poroshenko's looting the Ukrainian treasury as he fled to Russia. Ukraine wants Prigozhin dead or imprisoned for life.

4. See #3, Wagner was created largely for the purpose of taking over Ukraine.

[dennisw]

Prigo is in trouble from bad mouthing Shoigu and Gerasimov/ too often.

I think Ukies will have to leave Bakhmut. Perhaps what they are doing now is to smooth the way to a safe exit. To where the Russia cannot kill them as they retreat.

Part of Ukie Bakhmut Sacrifices / deaths. Is to hold off Russians until Ukies get their new tanks / howitzers from NATO and USA. Other vehicles and weaponry too

[gleeaikin]

Actually, Wagner may have been organized as early as 2008 by Dimitry Utkin. The very long and detailed link below indicates that Prigozhin’s involvement may be much more recent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

This article shows Wagner activity and links in more than a dozen African countrues, especially Sudan and Libya. Wagner/ Russian conflict in Syria has resulted in fatal exchanges with US military. This is a fascinating list of activities, even some in Serbia and Venezuela, and well worth reading.