Posted on 12/30/2023 9:29:50 AM PST by USA-FRANCE
“And, that’s you’re proud of?”
Nice try, Ivan.
As is so common with losers, you assume facts not in evidence, jump to conclusions, and rush to judgment; all tactics of someone who has lost the argument.
You see, Ivan, I never expressed pride, or disgust and condemnation, or anything in between: I just stated facts. And facts to you are like sunshine to vampires.
Continue to Pound Sand.
“Merkel said ‘The 2014 Minsk agreement was an attempt to give time to Ukraine. It also used this time to become stronger as can be seen today. The Ukraine of 2014-2015 is not the modern Ukraine.’ According to her, ‘it was clear to everyone’ that the conflict had been put on hold, noting that the issue had not been settled, ‘yet this was what gave Ukraine invaluable time.’”
Read that very carefully. Neither Merkel nor Hollande said the INTENT of Minsk II (which was signed on February 12, 2015) was to give Ukraine time to arm up and strengthen its national defense ability; it was to give Ukraine (and Russia) time to work out their differences and AVOID all-out war, which was the great fear. However, both sides soon arrived at their own respective interpretations of Minsk II, each to their own benefit, none of which were the intent of the poorly-drafted agreement. Did Ukraine ALSO take advantage of the impasse to strengthen itself militarily? Yes, of course it did; it would have been folly and national suicide NOT to. Did Russia ALSO take advantage of the impasse to increase its operations and control over and influence upon the Donbas? Of course it did.
Here is a link to a very interesting debate on this question of Minsk II, and what was said in the Zeit interview almost eight years later. It provides arguments for both sides. It’s a long read, but I think you will conclude that the INTENT of Minsk II was NOT to give Ukraine time to arm up.
Exactly the Diversion a Communist Apparatchik would use when confronted with the truth.
“So, ethnic Russians, after an illegal coup overthrew a democratically elected they voted for, were supposed to accept being persecuted or killed by neo-Nazis and Ukraine nationalists or leave their homes behind and go to Russia?”
Stop with the hyperbole and sensationalism. Those “ethnic Russians” were also UKRAINIAN citizens. You are saying that they placed allegiance to their ethnicity over any allegiance to their country. You have just described the most ancient cause of civil wars.
And, what’s with this “illegal coup?” The Ukrainian RADA (parliament), which INCLUDED members of Yanukovych’s own political party, performed its constitutional duty and presented Yanukovych with a set of reforms. Which he agreed to! Then immediately fled the country for Russia! Thus, he abandoned his presidency and the RADA exercised its constitutional authority and removed him from office (with even members of his own party agreeing with his removal). So, stop this BS about an illegal coup removing him.
“If you think so, Adolf, you are one sick SOB. How many swastikas do you have tattooed on your body?”
Nice try, Ivan.
Continue to burrow deeper into the sediment, kid.
As was already explained, there was no ethnic conflict in Crimea in 2008 that Russia needed to intervene in. All that changed in 2013-2014 when the western backed fascists overthrew the elected government.
Today, he says right the opposite - that Ukraine has always been Russian territory etc, etc... he changed his narrative 180 degrees!
You'll need to provide a link to such statements since I've already demonstrated how much context/interpretation matters.
Neither Nato or America have taken or annexed ANY nation in the entire NATO’s history - nowhere on the the planet!
Did you miss Mr. Putin's comments about Kosovo in the transcript or just are you just being willfully ignorant?
That as absurd as saying Jews were citizens of Nazi Germany and should have tolerated being discriminated against, persecuted and murdered.
The ethnic Russians and those that opposed the illegal are no different than colonists that rebelled against British rule and fought the Revolutionary War. They were and are under no obligation to remain part of illegal formed government that was intent on persecuting and murdering them.
And, never mind, the ONLY interest we had in Ukraine was so our elite could raid of money and resources. Ukrainian citizens got raped while our elite and its countries oligarchs got rich.
You are evil personified and are absolutely accountable to God for the wickedness you support. Only someone with moral depravity of a neo-Nazi would make the argument you just made.
Continue to Pound Sand.
“Neither Nato or America have taken or annexed ANY nation in the entire NATO’s history - nowhere on the the planet!”
-Did you miss Mr. Putin’s comments about Kosovo in the transcript or just are you just being willfully ignorant?-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Again, NON of the NATO countries have ANNEXED anything concerning Yugoslavia/Kosovo. There are ZERO American flags or NATO flags weaving on Governments buildings in Serbia or Kosovo. Why? because they have not been ANNEXED by the West!
Russia on the other hand... have put their Russian flags allover the regions they have stolen and ANNEXED. They wave their Russian flags on all official buildings in Russian occupied areas in Georgia, in Russian occupied areas in Moldova, in Russian occupied areas in Ukraine, and all over in Crimea!
They started in 2008 efficient pre-invasion preparations / psyop operations in the form of artificially fomented “ethnic conflict”. In reality it was mostly Russian “little green men” infiltrated in those areas - they were simply preparing the coming war of invasion and annexation of Ukraine, planned since long time ago by the Deep State Kremlin apparatchiks.
Don’t be naive. The Russian project to take over Ukraine is behind the CREATION of the so called “ethnic conflict” - which later enabled the excuse of ANNEXING all of Ukraine. Its a SCAM.
Again, Russian “little green men” were behind thit, its well known by now.
Willfully ignorant it is!
“That as absurd as saying Jews were citizens of Nazi Germany and should have tolerated being discriminated against, persecuted and murdered.”
YOUR comment is the absurdity. There is no comparison at all between Jews in Nazi Germany and ethnic Russians in Ukraine.
And, do you want to talk about Jews and Russians?
Russia was historically anti-Semitic. Nicholas I advanced the principle of “Official Christianity” (i.e., the official state religion), which was the doctrine of the “joint spirit of Orthodoxy, Autocracy, and Nationality.” It was VERY anti-Semitic. The vast majority of Jews were forced to live within the Pale of Settlement in southwest Russia (think of a vast Warsaw Ghetto). The Jews were restricted socially, economically, and educationally. Have you ever heard of pogroms? The difference between Nazi anti-Semitism and Russian anti-Semitism was the former was racial and the latter was religious. Though one could not change one’s race, one could change one’s religion. So, in that respect Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church are identical to the various moslem countries and islam.
“The ethnic Russians and those that opposed the illegal are no different than colonists that rebelled against British rule and fought the Revolutionary War. They were and are under no obligation to remain part of illegal formed government that was intent on persecuting and murdering them.”
Oh, stop with the hyperbole. And, what was the “illegal” to which you refer? The Ukrainian government? The Ukrainian government followed the Ukrainian constitution, Ivan. Or, are you saying that the Ukrainian constitution is illegal?
You eschew logic and reason, and function almost exclusively via emotion.
“And, never mind, the ONLY interest we had in Ukraine was so our elite could raid of money and resources. Ukrainian citizens got raped while our elite and its countries oligarchs got rich.”
Too funny! And stop using the nominative “we” in your comments, as your allegiance is to Russia; hence your bloodlust for genocide against Ukraine and NATO and the West in general (Ivan, your own posts condemn you on that score). Why do you think Russia made its moves into Ukraine? Because it coveted what Ukraine had! It coveted Crimea, so it invaded Crimea in February, 2014 and illegally annexed it in March, 2014. Ditto with eastern Ukraine (but different dates): Russia wants the vast natural resources of eastern Ukraine!
“You are evil personified and are absolutely accountable to God for the wickedness you support. Only someone with moral depravity of a neo-Nazi would make the argument you just made.”
Nice try, Ivan. You know you have lost your argument when you call on the wrath of God upon your opponent.
You’re a fanatic, Ivan.
Hey, kid; if you strike any oil deposits as you burrow ever deeper into the sediment in your pound-sanding tantrum, be sure to let me know, you hear? I might want to invest in the exploration and development of that resource.
There are more than 150 monuments and/or streets named after Bandera.
Congress cutoff funding from the Azov battalion in 2018 BECAUSE OF THEIR NEO-NAZI TIES.
Ukrainian soldiers have been captured covered with swastikas and Nazi symbols.
You're a clown. You're hypocrisy is a level with any Democrat or leftist.
The people of Crimea, Donetsk, Lugansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson had EVERY right to seek independence after an illegal coup that resulted in a President they voted for being driven out of office. They had EVERY right to join the Federation. And, THEY DID ALL THAT.
Don't like it? TOO DAMN BAD.😂 Whether you like or don't like, start learning to live with it. Those regions will remain with the Russian Federation for the rest of your life.
And, if Ukraine doesn't unconditionally surrender, the Russians are just getting started. They can and likely will take everything east of the Dnieper river and Odessa and leave Ukraine a poor, landlocked hellhole. 😂
Go get another Nazi tattoo, Adolf.
“Russia is historically anti-Semitic?”
Yup. Facts, Ivan.
“Yet, here you are supporting the country that is epicenter of neo-Nazism — Ukraine, a nation whose modern founding father was Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera.”
A country that has a Jewish president.
In any event, Bandera was an opportunistic nationalist who aligned with whomever he thought would advance his cause. He was indeed a scumbag, just as were the Russian communists who overthrew the hapless Nicholas II and murdered him and his family, and later instituted horrific actions against their own people, resulting in the deaths of millions.
I have no allegiance to Ukraine; I simply support its existential fight for survival against an unwarranted invasion by a larger and stronger neighbor; a neighbor that has a history of such aggression. It’s as basic as that, Ivan.
And don’t try to pull that crap about Russia not being the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was created by, controlled by, and dominated by Russia; everything the USSR did originated in and was ordered by Moscow. Its founding father was from the Russian city of Simirsk, on the Volga.
There could not have been a Soviet Union without Russia.
You wax indignant about “Nazis,” but conveniently ignore the many Russian admirers of the Soviet communists, today, in and out of government, who happily display the hammer and sickle of the communist Soviet Union. And between Nazi Germany and the communist Soviet Union, which system killed the most innocent people? There is no comparison: It was communism. It’s not surprising that the two most deadly political systems on the planet in 1939 joined together to launch the horror of WWII.
Just as there are Russians who identify with Lenin and Stalin and the communists there are Ukrainians who identify with Bandera. But I suggest to you the number of those Russians who identify with Lenin and Stalin and the communists is far greater than the number of Ukrainians who identify with Bandera and Nazis. So, unless you are willing to identify Russia by a contemporary association with communism — and all its horrors — you can’t identify Ukraine by a contemporary association with nazism.
That’s logic, Ivan, Which is something you cannot abide.
“Get this skull, you neo-Nazi loving POS:”
Oooh; you sound angry, Ivan. Better put some ice on that hurt.
“The people of Crimea, Donetsk, Lugansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson had EVERY right to seek independence after an illegal coup that resulted in a President they voted for being driven out of office. They had EVERY right to join the Federation. And, THEY DID ALL THAT.”
It’s funny, Ivan; but they had lost confidence in and withdrew support for Yanukovych before Euromaidan. His Party of Regions had been losing support for two years before his departure. Hell, much of the POR’s support switched to the communists (say, Ivan: is that why you pine for the good old days of the Soviet Union?). The POR had been losing seats in the Rada since early 2012. That right there showed a lack of confidence in Yanukovych among his party. On February 22, 2014 the Rada voted to impeach Yanukovych, whereupon he quickly beat feet back to Russia.
Of the 38 POR members present for the vote, 36 voted for impeachment, and the other 2 abstained. The next day the POR officially denounced Yanukovych, and he was ultimately expelled from the party.
“And, if Ukraine doesn’t unconditionally surrender, the Russians are just getting started.”
Yeah, you’re another one who is calling for unconditional surrender; such is your hatred for Ukraine and its people.
You are so transparent, Ivan. No wonder you have publicly, here on FR, called for the genocide of Ukrainians and westerners.
You’re unhinged, Ivan. But that is to be expected from the likes of you.
You're full it, Adolf. The insurrection that took place set off a civil war.
As soon as Yanukovych was overthrown, there was a shootout between police and the thugs in the Ukrainian military. Those organizing a protest petition in Odessa were locked in a labor building and burned to death. Donetsk and Lugansk declared their independence. Those in Crimea voted overwhelming to join the Russian Federation.
But, ruthless neo-Nazi scumbag like yourself is perfectly fine with illegal coups that trample on the democratic process.
Fortunately, those in Crimea in eastern Ukraine were able to seek out and get the help of the Russian government to liberate them. And, there isn't a damn thing you can about it except rant and rave and get another swastika tattoo.
Update on the conflict in Ukraine for January 1, 2024…
- Russia’s taking of the heavily fortified town of Maryinka demonstrates the futility of Kiev’s “dig-in” strategy;
- Ukrainian General Valery Zaluzhny has admitted that the likewise fortified city of Avdeevka will inevitably be taken by Russian forces;
- After months of stockpiling missiles, Russia has carried the first of what will likely be many large-scale strikes across Ukraine;
- Ukraine’s retaliation targeting Belgorod civilian targets is admittedly done solely for domestic “morale” and will only likely harden Russian resolve across all levels of Russian society;
- Ukraine’s strike on Crimea, destroying a landing ship, while a PR “victory,” demonstrates just how difficult it will be to “isolate” the peninsula considering the large number of ports and airfields Russia can use to supply both the civilian population and its military installations even without the Crimean Bridge and land-bridge;
- As Ukraine’s inevitable defeat becomes more widely accepted, NATO will have to decide whether to cut its losses and demonstrate to other proxies its lack of commitment or continue its commitment and demonstrate to its proxies that the collective West is simply, fundamentally weak;
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