Who belongs in Israel/Palestine

Dec 6 2001 | Self

[DCBurgess58]

I was so angry about the suicide attacks on Israel, that I told my wife I thought Israel should shut down the Palistinian Authority and just herd all the Palistinians at gunpoint to the borders and expel them all. My wife reminded me that sometimes I am a total idiot (she knows me so well... lol) and said she believed that the Palestinians had a right to be there also.

I have conflicting feelings about Israel/Palestine myself... First off I think that The Balfour agreement and the creation of Israel in 1948 were a total screwing of the Palestinians. On the other hand, the Jews were there prior to the Muslims and the Muslims took over the lands and eliminated/expelled the Jews in the middle ages.

So who are the rightful inhabitants of these lands? Well if you go back to the Bible (no, I'm not a holy roller, I've just been doing a little research because a friend put this forth to me), God promised the land to the decendants of Abraham.

Who are the decendants of Abraham? They are the children of Issac (son of Abraham's wife Sarah and the lineage whom God made the covenant with), and Ishmael (son of Hagar, Sarah's servant who bore Abraham a child because Sarah was barren).

Issac's line are now known as Jews. Ishmael and his mother Hagar were expelled by Sarah and found their way to the place which is now known as Mecca. There they made an alter to God and settled. The Islamic religon was founded (via mohammed) by the line of Ishmael.

God promised Abraham, that Issac's Line would carry the covenant and would grow to a multitude as the stars in the sky and would include kings. He also promised that Ishmael's line would become a multitude and would include twelve great princes.

So, according to Genesis in the Bible (read from Gen 11 to Gen 24) Jews and Muslims are both entitled to be there... as tough as it may seem, this is a problem which must be worked out.

[DCBurgess58]

I had wrote this as a response on a previous thread. It was lost among the several hundred replies in that thread. I would really like to hear any comments you may have about this.

Cheers, Dave B

[Romulus]

It's worth pointing out that many Palestinians are Christians, constituting living communities dating from Biblical times, and descending from the original, mostly Jewish, Christian communities in Jerusalem, Bethlehem, etc. By ancestry, many "Palestinians" are Jews.

[DCBurgess58]

True but I'm really refering to the Islamic masses who dance with glee when they see Jews or Americans killed. Those Palestinians.

[American in Israel]

Well the Islamic part is a bit simplistic. The Arabs did spread over the land, along with the Jews. Christianity spread over those lands too. Most of the books in the new Testament were written to cities in those areas, Epphis, Corinth etc. Mohammad made his religion up in the dessert, and wiped out the Meccaites, he kept one of the gods, (out of 360), named him allah and kept the block of rock they worship. He did not found Islam in an extension of worship of Abraham’s God. He made up an entirely new religion thousands of years later. He "borrowed" parts of both Christianity and Judaism to legitimize his new religion, but his god is so different that he can not possibly be the same god as the Jews and the Christians. In fact, other than the part where they call him god, and say he is one, there is no further parallels. Allah is the polar opposite of Elohim and Mohammad has destroyed most Jews and Christians from their original lands.

If you wanted to boil the difference down simplistically, you could easily show that Judaism and Christianity seeks to bring men to God in repentance, whereas Islam brings them to “submission” by the sword. Judeao/Christian philosophy requires respect of life and property. Where Islam is a robber tribe mentality, all your bases (and wives) are belong to us…

[Romulus]

That burns me up too, but sadly, you don't have to go very far to find bloodthirsty bigots.

[American in Israel]

Just as a short note, the Jews that I talk with say both belong in the land. The Arabs say only Arabs belong in the land.

[x]

If we were refugee Jews in the forties we would have fought so as not to be driven out, and if we were their children later we would have done the same. If we were Palestinian Arabs we would have fought so as not to be driven from our homes. Right or wrong, whichever group we belonged to, we would have fought for survival as we understood it. At this point it doesn't look like the question can be settled by asserting that one group or another has unique title to the land. Neither side is going to let itself be driven out, and one has to start with that.

[DCBurgess58]

I'm not trying to be argumentative with you... but from what I have read that massive thing we see in photos of Mecca and think is a black rock is actually a building called something like the Kab'bla. The rock thingy is supposedly mounted in the eastern wall and was given to Adam by God. The roots of the Islamic religeon are clearly somewhat commen with Judaism and Christianity. Also I don't know that Mohammed wiped out the population of Mecca. I read that he just kinda wiped out enough that the rest said "Hey I'm with you Bubba (just don't kill my ass like Akmed over there)... uh Allah yeah, that's the ticket.

[PRND21]

He who can hold it.

[AshleyMontagu]

How do Israeli Jews feel about their American Jewish brothers (and sisters) who stay in the US? Are their prayers and dollars enough to offset the resentment which would naturally arise? I would think that as the kitchen gets hotter the locals would grow to resent the 'fighters from afar' more and more. True?

[thuleanfire]

He who can hold it.

I'm inclined to agree...with the following amendment...*both* sides are insane...and neither side deserves U.S. aid or assistance. America needs an even-handed, neutral, hands-off policy in that region of the world--it will save us a lot of trouble if we stay out of their internecine conflict. Cut 'em loose and let 'em fight each other to the death for eternity in that desert hell. Their behavior has demonstrated they deserve that fate, and each other. They're only doing what comes natural for them.

[PRND21]

Don't use me to pick a fight, newbie.

[ladyinred]

Simple to me, the Jewish people were given the land by the treaty and became a nation in 1948. What they didn't have, they won in war. It is theirs. If the Palestinians want to live there peacefully, great, if not, the land belongs to Israel, and they should move on.

Next question?:)

[thuleanfire]

Don't use me to pick a fight, newbie.

Your one sentence quote was so pregnant, though, with possibilities. If you wanted no one to talk about it, you might have not posted it, or said something different.

Don't worry, each poster is held responsible for their own writings, so if anyone wants to fight, they'll take it up with me and not you.

[thuleanfire]

He who smites an Israelite on the jaw, is as though he had thus assaulted the Divine Presence; for it is written, one who smiteth an Israelite attacketh the Holy One.

But Judaism is a religion of peace, just like Islam!

The quote is not a surprise, though, most groups tend to favor their own and place their own at "the center." Although one suspects in this particular case there might be a little hypocrisy, since the adherents to what you posted tend to advocate cosmpolitanism and such, to be practiced by everybody else but themselves, of course.

[Excuse_Me]

Most Israelis favor living side by side with the Arabs. Israeli Arabs vote, and have several members in the Knesset. The Arabs that did not leave in protest in 1948 still live in Israel today and make up 15 percent of the population. The Arabs that left, hoping that the attacks of 1948 and 1949 would crush Israel, so they could return as conquerers picked the wrong side, and were not allowed back in.

The Jordanians and Syrians at the time refused to allow trhem to assimilate in their countries, fearing they might cause political instability, and so forced their Islamic brothers into the refugee camps. No Jews are representd in any Arab government, and in most Muslim countries they cannot even vote or testify in court, so they have no recourse to the legal system. Israel is a democracy, which opened up Jerusalem to all religions in 1967 when they took control of it. Prior to that, access was restricted except to Muslims.

So yes, both parties belong there, but I only see one willing to share.

[DCBurgess58]

I reiterate my post however... If there is a God and the Bible is true, then both sides are promised the land as they are both decended from Abraham. It's like some sort of Gorgon's knot, sure you can cut the knot with a sword but I think it's supposed to be untied. It does however mention in Genesis that (as I recall) that only one branch of Ishmael's decendants will prevail (I guess I'll have to read it again).

[rmlew]

No, the Ishmaelites where given a land of their own.
The Bible is quite explicit about who got what.
A portion was given to both son, but Isaac was given what we now think of as Israel. (It should be noted that the name Israel was given to Isaacs's inheritor by God.)
According to the Bible, other groups were also given land. The Edomites where given mich of the Negev desert....

While Biblical inheritance is explicit, international law is governed by he who writes history.
Most people forget that there is a sovereign Palestinin country called Jordan, comprising 2/3 of Palestine. It is not coincidental that all Jews have been expelled from this land. Actually vitrulaly al;l Jews were expelled from Arab countries in the decade following Israels creation. There were about as many Jews expelled from Arab nations as arabs who choose to leave Israel.