[crystalk]

For a slow, cold, day in a Minnesota winter, especially if one's ancestors were Scandinavian.

[TexanToTheCore]

My own theory is that most archaeologists are not boat owners.
If they were, the proximity of Greenland to North America would be a dead give-away that the Norse were in North America very early. If I remember it would be about 150 hours sailing time (at 4 knots), a short trip.
You probably couldn't keep them out.

[TexanToTheCore]

The stone was probably ballast for a shallow draft boat. The width of it my be the width of the boat used.

[TexanToTheCore]

Bump

[Cultural Jihad]

Mr.Ohman and the Runestone

[TexanToTheCore]

bump

[TexanToTheCore]

I just checked the Topo map and it resembles Southwestern Illinois which was entirely swamp. The drainage channels are an accurate indication of a water problem. It is very likely that the soil in this area became saturated in late fall and when the snowpack melted, flooded.
We have hemmed in our rivers and deepened them over the last two hundred years and they don't resenble their state that long ago. It is very likely that this area was subjected to wide area floods that were not particularly deep, but lasted for some time each year. The current would be quite slow, perhaps imperceptible over large areas and would definitely be traversible.
We tend to associate floods with damage these days but a seafaring people would see a flood as an opportunity to explore, a new eight lane highway taking them into the interior. I don't doubt that the island was exactly that.
The boat used could be rather large, perhaps 30-40 feet, draughng 2 feet at the keel. It would definitely handle the number of men claiimed. If two boats, two of twenty feet would do the trick. A twenty footer could draught as little as 18 to 20 inches.

[TexanToTheCore]

I suspect that expeditions were sent out each year at flood time, sometimes for serious purposes many times for fun, possibly a casual rite of passage for young men, something to brag about in the presence of the young ladies.
Up until the mid 1800s most boats had very shallow draughts and were ballasted with stone. The mediterranean and the coasts of Europe are littered with stones that came from somewhere else. If you dig underneath them you can sometimes find a keel, as it is a marker for a ship that went down.

[TexanToTheCore]

Oddly enough, the 14 day figure as a standard unit of measure gives a clue into the sailing technique of the Norsemen. Their ships would only be capable of about 3.5 to 4 knots and in order to make sense, it would require that the ships did not heave to at dusk, but would continue to sail throughout the night with a second crew.
If they used this technique, it would deefinitely be a fourteen day sail.

[TexanToTheCore]

bump

[TexanToTheCore]

Can you post the full text of the stone? I'd be curious to see it.
thanks....

[TexanToTheCore]

A few words on the flooding that might have occurred in this area. The most recent example of wide area flooding that would float a viking boat or ship was relatively recent. It occurred along the Mississippi in 1993 and affected Illinois, Iowa and Wisconsin. At one point, in August or July one could have launched a viking ship just east of Des Moines, Iowa and sailed it into Illinois without touching bottom. So the idea that thousands of square miles of prairie could be flooded is not at all far fetched.

[TexanToTheCore]

The skerries are not much of a problem if you think of them as small knolls scattered throughout the flooded. Can they be identified? Possibly, but it is also likely that they were destroyed by farmers as they cleared the land of rock and first broke the soil. They could have camped on another knoll.

Where did they come from? Probably from a settlement that was south of their entry point. This allow for the carving of traveling "round the West". It could also be a idiomatic expression for anything other than a coastal area, which is quite likely.

Was this part of Erlindsson's mission to find the lost Norsemen? Probably not. The lack of reference to a King or reign would lead me to the conclusion that the trip was a single month long lark, a simple trip to learn more about Vinland.

The absence of thirty men from a settlement is somewhat difficult to understand. If the area of settlement was extremely rich in food resources (which is quite possible considering the stunning salmon runs up Canadian rivers at the time) it would certainly be possible. The other possiblity is that the settlement was large enough to be relatively unaffected by the absence of this many men. Although a large settlement has not been found that would be this size, it may exist in some protected place that has not been found. My own opinion is that the area required substantially less work for survival and that the men's absence would not be missed for a fairly long period of time. Perhaps that was why it was called Vinland.

Could ten men sail an ocean going ship? Yes, indeed. Because of the simplicity of the rigging, it could probably be sailed by 4 people. 1 forward watch, 1 on the lee board (steering) and 2 on the mains'l.

[TexanToTheCore]

The Mica test along with other factors lead me to believe that this stone is a legitimate artifact and that is was found where it was planted by Norsemen. One of the questions that must be answered is why this stone was chiseled and left on the knoll.

The answer is in the last line of the inscription on the front. "AVM deliver us from this evil".

This stone is a prayer, made more important by its being carved in stone. This is a terrified man's plea for help and is a rare insight into the Norsemen as humans.

Did they make it back home? I suspect so. They probably left before the water went down and made it back to their ship on the coast by a different route, avoiding the indians (Ojibwa?).

And that, I think is the story. Someone who is serious needs to get out to the knoll and start digging to see if they can locate other artifacts, such as datable ashes. It is a shame that this artifact has been treated so cavalierly over the years, as it could lead to further nderstanding of the Norsemen in Vinland.
<>

[TexanToTheCore]

It is unlikely that the river could move 40 to sixty miles. A more likely scenario is that the Red River is so small that it could not drain a large area quickly and that wide area flooding occurred. I worked on a levee during the 93 floods and the amount of water that came down was astounding.

The reason that Iowa flooded was that a wet fall was followed by a heavy snowpack followed by an extremely wet spring. The amount of water that was left in Iowa fields simply could not drain fast enough. This also occurred near Prairie Du Chien, Wisconsin. Prairie flooding, I suspect, was far more common in those days, as our rivers had not been deepened and diked and our flat farm land had nt been criss crossed with drainage ditches. The Mississippi was less than half as deep as it is now. The channel is maintained at 9 feet and it is quite likely that the river average about 2 feet deep in those days.

[Graewoulf]

Thanks for this post.

[TexanToTheCore]

There are many markers that would lead a Norseman to Vinland. One of the best would be westward swimming atlantic salmon. They spawn in rivers in Norway as well as Canada and any attempt to follow them would lead to Vinland.

[SunkenCiv]

Just adding this to the GGG catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)